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I saw this advertised in Acoustic Guitar Mag...

http://tonerite.com/

The ToneRite® is the world's premier automatic play-in device for acoustic instruments such as the guitar, violin, mandolin, viola, cello and double bass.

The play-in process is a scientific phenomenon that the quality and volume of sound from an acoustic system increases with consistent stimulation. The ToneRite® works by efficiently and safely transferring energy into an instrument that allows the instrument to resonate freely thereby increasing its volume, tone, balance and playability. The secret behind the ToneRite® is that a small high-g vibration can silently and for long periods of time excite the body of an instrument to de-dampen and allow the instrument to resonate as a whole.

Steve, Todd Stock got a discussion going recently along the same line
viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=24308

Some interesting links, including guys who've used cheap aquarium air pumps (which operate at the same 60Hz) to do the same job. I'm looking forward to further discussion on this

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Dave
Milton, ON

I know Tim Mcknight uses it and from everything that i've read online I believe it must make some sort of difference. Too many others have reported benefits as well, so I'd be inclined to believe there is something behind it. With the next paycheck I might pick one up, as long as the Canadian dollar doesn't plummet haha.

Matt

I have one, and NO, it is not voodoo. Ok, well, uh.. um... maybe it is voodoo, but I can attest that it is voodoo that WORKS.

Well, we know that guitars do 'play in': vibration over time effects the sound they make, even if we don't know exactly why. There's no reason why this thing can't work.

OTOH, we also know that guitars can 'play out'. I have to wonder if 'playing in' might not be the first stage of 'playing out'? Maybe these artificial playing in methods are just shaving years off the useful life of the guitar.

At any rate, you should not need to resort to such devices to get good sound. Buying a guitar you don't like the sound of, in the hopes it will play in, is like marrying somebody you don't like, in the hopes that they will become lovable. A good guitar should sound good from the beginning, even if it does get better over time.

Aint no Voo Doo Dudes...

Is the principles of Induction, Sympathetic Harmonic Resonance and the Perpetual Transmutation of Radian Energy...or if you wish ...simple physics.

All energy flows from a high to a low vibration. This is known physics.
Pic the hi E string the other E gonna vibrate...synpathetic resonance inducing that which is in harmony with it to start vibrating.

So when an instrument is induced into vibration, there is a natural, normal tendency for that intrument to stop any and all vibrations that are in harmonic resonance with it, absorb them and to start vibrating at the same frequency. ~ the Perpetual Transmutation of Radiant Energy.

Now think about this...how many of you talk to your wood, tell it what you want it to sound like...the wood can't think for itself...you gotta think for it...you hasta tell it what is expected of it...you gotta imbue it with energy..with life...with the vibrations in your voice and in your heart...while she being built...makes for a much faster "play in" time. Of course you can strap a 15 in speacker to the back, crank the volume up to 10 and let it get "broken in" for about a week. Or what ever fangled ToneRite® gadget they have come up with to induce vibration into the instrument if you got the bucks to buy gadgets. Me...me talks to the wood. Simple.


Think about it...why do churches feel all peacefull inside, why do bars feel the way they do? What about the "vibs" in a jail house.

So now me asks you "What energy be you cranken out in your head, hand, heart while you be in your shop?" Hmm?

Or better still..."what was the thought in your head when the chisel slipt"...Hmm?

Voo Doo...Ya right.

DUDES...Talk to your wood!


Blessings
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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if you put a small speaker inside the body, or mabey taped it to the bridge plate, wouldn't you get the same effect.

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Bring me a sane man, and I will cure him.

That would be easier then a machine i seen years ago that had a pick attached and it would strum the clamped in instrument 10,000 times to get the same effect this gizmo claims. There is also some people who place the instrument near a speaker cabinet and play music loudly claiming it helps break the instrument in. I find this device interesting but why can't there be one just for every instrument then multiple versions?...Mike

This is interesting. But, I believe in the Scientific Method. And therefore, it should be possible to derive some metric, test against that metric and see if this device really does something useful. To wit, why is there no scientific data on that website? I did not log into the forums... so maybe there is. But you would think posting some charts and data would be effective advertizing, or does this fall under the famous ad tag-line "If [insert snake oil product of choice here] did not do something wonderful, could we really afford to do this?"

I am not being negative, I just want to see some data. If the data supports it, I will buy one.

Mike

I am with you on the scientific method, but where I think it often falls short in this type of stuff is it is very hard to quantify "better" in terms of tone. It seems to be dependant on the observer and their current mood.

IIRC Michael Lewis uses one of these as well.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

He says it works, and totally I believe him. Arch-tops are different beasts though.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

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Well Todd ...

From the longest slowest moving wave lenghts to the shortest fastest moving waves...all is energy... at a certain frequency or wave length. Change the frequency you change the manifestation of the energy. But it is STILL ENERGY.


"The Perpetual Tansmutation of Radiant Energy."
Definitive work by
Dr. Therman Fleet
Concept - Therapy Institute
Copywrite 1956
San Antonio Texas.

Summary

The Law of Perpetual Transmutation of Radiant Energy

"This law explains the truth that everything in the material univers is simply a manifestation of Energy, What we know as the material univers, matter, life, or energy, together with what we see, hear, smell, tast, feel and our emotions are nothing more or less than the manifestation of different forms of Energy.

The univers as a whole, and in its parts, has its existence in an ocean of motion. Motion is the only manifestation of Energy. Change is its only attributre, and because of it, comes all that is apparent to our material senses. This law explains the true nature of Force, Power, Matter and why each in its turn can be controled by Radian Energy. Nothing is perpetual but motion. Nothing exists but motion. All manifestations are forms of motion. Energy is!"

and

"Energy can neither be created nor can it ever be destroyed. It is perpetual, infinite, and in no sense finite. It is perpetually being radiated from its point of transmutation.
The medium of transmutation is perpetually absorbing an equal amount of radiant energy, radiatied from some other medium or point of transmutation. The absorption and radiation are governed by the sphers of relative motion, or the Law of Resonance. Thus radiant energy is both the cause and effect of itself."

~ Dr. Therman Fleet


Now if you can't grock or handle that, then I refer you to the "Heart Sutra" by Gautama Sakyamuni Buddha....but the languaging is not physics and is somewhat difficult for the wester mind to grasp.

So me here to talk luthierizem...not physics. I quit teaching 25 years ago and have no intentions of getting into it here As such I will no longer respond to this topic in the context of which it is framed. As all this info is on the net and there are tones of videos on youtube and other sites about this subject....I suggest you do your own research.

However I hope this sheds some light on your post Todd and points you in a starting direction.


blessings
the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I've measured changes in the output spectrum of 'played' guitars as against the same guitar before it got played. Carleen Hutchins published a paper in the Catgut Society 'Journal' showing similar measurements on violin family instruments. We have a prety good idea of what happens, and how it effects the sound, we just don't know why.

Blasting a guitar with sound from a speaker is really innefficient, since most of the sound just bounces off. It's easier to convert the guitar into a speaker. You can modify a speaker by gluing something like a cork onto the dust cover over the coil, and pressing the cork against the bridge of the guitar. I recently made a little coil that clips onto the saddle to do the same thing. I hang the gutiar up, insert a rare earth magnet into the center of the coil, run an alternating current through the coil, and the guitar speaks. Or sings, or whatever. A couple of watts fed in this way makes quite a lot of sound, and makes a noticable difference in the way the gutiar responds in a couple of days. Rather than 60 cycle hum I like to plug into a radio. Or, you could put Doc Watson (or Sabicas or Williams) on your CD changer and let it rip.

I try really hard to make guitars that sound god off the bench, and get better. Also, I have to wonder if 'playing in' is just the first stage of 'playing out': if so, I'd rather not be putting out 'stone washed' guitars.

Nail on the head for how I feel about this, Alan. If the guitar sounds good, just play it, instead of letting a machine do it for you and perhaps shave time off it's useful responsiveness-life or whatever it would be called. If for whatever reason you're not so happy with the sound, a Tonerite or similar treatment is probably worth trying.

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

As far as the product goes.. everyone want's to invent the next pet rock and it looks like these guys have theirs... Now what was it that P.T Barnum said.....

I think it is time to go talk to the Spaghetti Monster.

Mike

Him said a couple of things...

"Step right up ladies and gentlemen, get your tickets right here for the greatest show on earth...the one and only two headed with only one head!"

But your probably refering to his famose sucker line.

Heard them all as me the Padma ran off with the carnival at 14.


Blessings
the
padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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It removes unwanted lipstick stains from your collar,
It only costs you a dollar,
change your life
change your life
turn you into a nine year old Hindu boy
get ridda your wife!


....step right up....

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Coke & juju beans please....

Why does Tonerite not provide data? I am going to go search their forum.

If you decide to test it, i would sart with the least expensive model (the Topfin). But you have to control the environment (RH, Temp, etc.)

Then, how do you "excite" the guitar? Using a pick will provide to much error. Loud tone inputs via speakers? Mic the guitar...

Then just exactly what are you looking for in the data? What is a data representation of tone?

Frankly, this sounds impossible. Maybe a double blind test?

Ok dudes, lets try and do this the old fashond way...

We be about a week away from the next full moon..so save all your wood shavings till then. Were upon at midnight, on the full moon we all go out into the back yard, start a fire, and make a circle with all the instruments that we need to be "fixed up" you know "played in". Be shure to invite your drumming buddies ( just tell them its full moon drummin, in your back yard (or the local grave yard if you really wanna envoke the energies) and your supplying the food and intoxicants)...they'll show. Be sure to invite some dancing bar girls to help set the mood. and don't forget your neiboure or they'll get bent out a joint and call the cops on ya.

So you gets this rip roaran fire going, strip off all yer cloths, dance neckid round the fire singing some mysical mumbo jumbo chants that you gets to make up, inviting the "spirits" to arrise from the flame and imbue your builds with whatever sound quality you desire to invite in."

NOW DON"T you dudes be LAUGHING HERE....This is the striped down version of a 10,000 year old himalayan tantrick practice. They say it works...Like dudes 20 million monks cant be wrong can they?

Now of course you could always drop some bucks on some gadget, stimulate the economy and all that... but really dudes what sound like more fun? gadget or dancing nekid under a full moon?

Right!

Me rest me case.


Talk to your wood dudes!


the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I think it's very possible that 20 million monks can be wrong: there are millions of Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists etc. - all believing various contradictory things. Some of them have to be incorrect.

The Toneright needs more science to substantiate it and less anecdotal heresay, in my opinion. And Mr. Carruth's claim that if the Toneright is effective, that it may very well be shortening the useful life of an instrument, is certainly possible too.

So many variables; so many temptations to draw conclusions.

Mike O'Melia asked:
"What is a data representation of tone?"

There are several possible ways to do it, but one of the easiest is an 'impulse spectrum'. Basically, you tap on the saddle, record the 'thump' on a computer, and use a Fourier Transform program to figure out how much energy is in the signal at every frequency. The tap puts energy into the guitar at all frequencies up to a limit established by the contact time between the 'hammer' and the 'anvil'. The guitar then 'rings' at every resonant frequency that can be driven from that point, and puts out sound. The microphone picks up whatever sound the guitar can radiate in that direction. With a single tap and one mic you get a sort of 'snapshot': not everything you'd like to know, but enough information to find the person at the airport. With more taps or more mics you get more info.

When you pluck a string it puts in energy as very specific frequencies, and the guitar converts that into sound more or less effectively. The 'impulse spectrum' is a reading of how effective the guitar is at every frequency when driven from that location: in effect a sort of filter profile for the string sounds.

What if there is the possibility they are all right. The universe is a strange place that doesn't seem to work on regularities.

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Really, some must eh. Hmmm ...me hasta think on that one.

Truth is me useta believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Clause till the boys took me around back of the monastery and straightend me thinking out...But then years later, you wouldn't believe what happend...me was struck down with a blinding bolt of light and my true purpose on this earth was reveild....now I'm a believer, got at job...ya is only one night a year and ya it don't pay much but sure is a blast dudes. See pic.




Lots of peoples (mainly little peoples believes in me) and I belives in them...

"but this part of all them Monks, and Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists etc. - all believing various contradictory things. Some of them have to be incorrect"....Sorry, that part me don't quite get.



blessings
tP

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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