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I am looking into upgrading my little drill press and I really want to get either a small milling machine or a mill drill. Space is an issue, it would have to be one of the benchtop machines. I really want to be able to run the wagner planer also but most of the milling machines top out at about 2500 rpm and the wagner literature says it works best closer to 5000. The best I have found is a bench sized rong fu type mill drill that hits 3000. I have used the wagner at roughly full speed in a bridgeport (I think it hit 3500) and it seemed fine. Does anyone know of something else or am I overthinking this and 2500 would be fine for normal use of the wagner?

In terms of use, I am expecting to use it primarily as a drill press and do machining mostly of aluminum with only very mild steel work. After using a bridgeport at my work and learning very basic milling techniques I don't want to be without the option and I have come to rely on the exact tolerances the machine allows. Any ideas anyone has about machine options or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

look for a solid machine and with a smooth X and Y table. You also want the scales to be readable and the table locks are secure. I have a larger mill drill and use it a good bit. A power feed would be nice. Look for a good quill and not just a drill chuck.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I had used many gris tools . I am finding the motors to be an issue. In my last 3 machines . all blew out a motor within a few months. I think Jet or shop fox are better units.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Burton...For years, I've been running my safety planer at 3000 RPM in a drill press and it works flawlessly...unless the cutters are dull. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference and improvement in its performance after sharpening. I mill mostly mahogany but I have thicknessed everything from spruce to hard maple.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Thanks guys,

The unit I have been leaning toward recently is a grizzly. A step up from the real mini version. Here is the link:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill/G0463

It has the dovetail column instead of the round which I like. It also looks like it may hit 4000 rpm? That is confusing as above it says only 2000 for the hi-lo. The size is good too.

John, I will look into the Jet and Shop Fox ones. Thank you for that first hand knowledge. Which larger mill drill do you use? Does it have the round column? If I do get it I may make the long drive out to Grizzly and get a bunch of other stuff I have been wanting all at once. That would be fun.

Filippo, I have been doing a lot of web searching and it seems a lot of people do like the little grizzly mill which seems like the same one others are selling painted green and with someone on the other end of the line when it gets screwy. I like that too.

JJ, thanks for that info. That is kind of what I thought but I am glad to hear you say it. I have been coming up with more and more uses for that little guy.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I have a mill drill from MSC. It is very simialr to the grizzly unit . http://grizzly.com/products/Mill-Drill- ... Feed/G1007
That is about like mine. I do have digital readouts. The machine is a mechanics dream.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I highly recommend getting a dovetail column!!!!!!!!!!!!

You will lose your xy zero with a round column if you have to change tooling that is on the large side. I hate my round column mill/drill!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get the dovetail column!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps an actual machinist can work around this issue, but I have trouble with it.

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http://www.booneguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stephen-Boone-guitar-builder/488208541257210

John,

I looked at that machine and even found one on Maine craigslist for a decent price (not sure of its condition) but , like Stephen, the round column makes me really nervous. What can you do to get around it?

Thanks for all of your responses.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

There us a trick to using a round column . Larger mill drills will have the round column. If you have to make height adjustments . Make a fixture and for an example let say you use a 1/2 inch drill and drill blank. Clamp a piece into the vice and drill a hole . Replace the drill with the blank.
Move the head and you are pretty darn close. You can an edge finder if you are on precise work . I wish they made a larger dovetail but never assume you won't move as the gibs can make things move if they are not adjuster properly

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Bigger than you want but I've had one of the G3102 mills http://www.grizzly.com/products/Vertical-Mill/G3102 for about 5 yrs. I originally got it to use for my work building prototype electronic and I can work to +/- 0.005" with a bit of care. A Bridgeport its not but I use it a lot with wood and it works quite well. I use it for truss rod slots, bridges and any precision drilling I want to do. Pay real close attention to the x, y and z travel limits as well as the distance from the table to the column. I would also go with a dovetail column if at all possible and a unit that uses collets and not just a chuck.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I don't have much direct experience with the benchtop machinery, but here's what I've picked up, much of which you probably already know:
- The round-column machines make good drill presses, decent 2D mills, and pretty limited 2.5D mills.
- The low-end dovetail column machines are very lightly built, but reasonably capable with very light cuts.
- The RF45 dovetail machines are well-liked (but probably too slow for wood, unless the drive was updgraded).
- If your needs fit it, the round-column machines are usually better built for the same $.
- Check out http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/ and http://www.cnczone.com/forums/index.php -- they have the most experience with these machines.

And for general machine equipment:
- For heavy cuts, you need a heavy machine.
- For accuracy, you need a good and heavy machine.
- Most Taiwanese equipment (e.g., Rong Fu) is a distinct step up from Chinese.
- Remember to factor in tooling costs (vise, collets, parallels, etc). Parlec makes a nice alternative to Kurt, and the 9" opening is very handy, though it may be too big for a mill-drill. I'd still try to fit it though, for the 9".
- DROs add a lot of $ and ease of use. But they aren't essential, once you know how to handle backlash.
- Used equipment can be bargain if it comes with tooling and is not worn out. The older US mini-knee-mills are nice, but usually worn out; used Taiwanese less likely. It's hard to do accurate work on a worn-out mill.
- Penn tool has good prices on machinery on your side of the country.

I think the key is to identify your needs as clearly as possible. Almost all the machine have 'place'.

On the round column issues, I don't have direct experience so can't offer any assurance, but I would look for the max spindle travel to deal with the tooling height issue. The RF-31 has 5" travel, which should be enough to go from a collet-cutter, to a chuck-drill, to a collet-reamer, assuming you plan your operations and set the column correctly beforehand. Probably not enough to go to a chuck-reamer, and not enough for much 2.5D work. I'd ask an RF31 owner about it, though.

In round column machines, the RF31 has some advantages for the $ (weight, spindle speed, spindle travel, Taiwan):
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/produ ... oryID=4943

In dovetail columns, the RF45 is good except for the spindle speeds.
It looks like the G0463 tops out at 2000 (high gear).

Summary, for the same $:
- Round columns should be better at "heavy" cuts and accuracy.
- Dovetail columns are more convenient and adaptable, and much better for 2.5D work.

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David Malicky

I run the Wagner at 3000 rpm since this is top speed on my drill press and it works fine. Never had a problem.

There is a radial arm saw version available also I think mine turns at 3450 rpm.

http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=836-920

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Keith MacKenzie
Location: Florida
"To err is human to really screw up you need tools"

I run a Safety planer on one of these:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-Speed-Bench-Top-Radial-Drill-Press/G7945

It goes up to about 3500 RPM and works well, but as has been mentioned, keeping the planer blade sharp is key. At the hobbiest level of use, its been running OK for a couple of years now.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

A nifty tip for changing heights on the round-column machines -- mount a laser pointer on the head and aim at a plumb-bob far away:
http://homemetalshopclub.org/news/aug02/aug02.html
(near the bottom of the page)

Also, the lower-end dovetail column machines are all or mostly made by Sieg (X1, X2, X3, X3 super).

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David Malicky

Yes, they are all the Seig machines. Thanks for all of that info David. I spent a little time on those forums but just now have gone back and done some more looking. SOOO much good information. Another friend of mine mentioned there is an upgraded gear set for the X3 that ups the rpms to 3450. That might sell me if it is true.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Burton…I would look on Craig’s list for a Bridgeport. Here are a few that I would look into.

http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/for/1428031443.html
http://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/tls/1430441814.html
http://worcester.craigslist.org/tls/1434445087.html

I have a grizzly mini mill and it is a POS!!!!

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Rich S

"The inconvenience of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain has been forgotten"

Rich,

I would love a full size machine but there is no way i could fit it. My shop is really small and being in the city it makes it too expensive to move to a larger space for now. I do have access to a bridgeport when I need one (with a nice DRO too) but I need something smaller for myself. It is disheartening to hear about your grizzly. Which model do you have?

You are in Newtown? I used to live in Canton but had friends in Newtown and hung out there a bit.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Burton…I have the G8689. It’s there lowest priced machine and the old adage “you get what you pay for” is true in this case. This mill is a toy!!! It has so many faults and don’t know where to begin so I’ll sum it up in one sentence. “It will not machine a straight line and it is impossible to adjusted it to machine a straight line”
I also want to add that they say it has a ¾ HP motor, don’t believe it. I put an am probe on the AC end and ran it at full speed. It measured 0.9 amps. That makes it a 1/10 HP motor at best.

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Rich S

"The inconvenience of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain has been forgotten"

Rich, It sounds like that measured the no-load power, which should be low even at full speed. It's pretty difficult for us end-users to measure the "rated HP" of a motor, as that requires a calibrated load (dynamometer) and temperature monitoring. Rated power is the output a motor can maintain without overheating for some duty cycle, either infinite or intermittent (the latter for a Chinese mini-mill). Most motors can output ~2x their rated power for brief intervals.

You could try running the test again with the motor taking a variety of heavy cuts, enough to slightly slow down the motor (keep the test short to avoid overheating). Then take about 60-70% of the Volts*Amps for mechanical power. Those numbers would be more in the ballpark of rated HP.

In any case you're probably right that 3/4 HP is somewhat optimistic -- often true for Chinese motors. And that's interesting that it won't machine a straight line.

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David Malicky

I have a HF mini mill and it's not bad for small stuff but don't know if it's large enough for your needs. It's speed can be increased. You might also want to check out Little Machine Shop for some talk about mini mills and parts available.
http://www.littlemachineshop.com/defaul ... gAodVxCexA

David…I ran the test under a normal load. Today, just for shits and giggles I ran it under a heavy load and I measured a peek of slightly over 2 A. I then pinned the shaft and measured 2.8 amps before the protection circuit shut it down.
This reminds me of the crap that Sears pulls with there labeling system/marketing scam. There contractor saw has a 1.5 HP motor on it and the label on the front of the saw says 3 HP and in small letters "max developed". They do it to sway the consumer to pick there machine over a delta 1.5 HP saw. Another interesting note is The HP stickers on there wet/dry vacs increase every year and it’s the same dam universal motor.

Chris…littlemachine shop sells a belt conversion kit for the mini mill and it works great. The belt drive system is better than the machine it sits on. I blew the plastic drive gears!

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Rich S

"The inconvenience of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain has been forgotten"

My thought would be to NOT let the recommended rpm on the safety planer influence your purchase decision too much. I use tools smaller in diameter than the safety planer at a couple thousand rpm with good results. The key, as others have mentioned, is to keep the cutters sharp.
I swapped out the single phase motor on my round column mill with a brushless DC motor with controller. This allows easy switching rpm between tapping (reversing included) small holes in steel to cutting wood. If I was looking for a second mill it might be a used 3phase machine and put a VFD on it to control RPM. Changing belt positions on the pulleys is painstaking at best when changing spindle speed.
Another feature I would look for is 5 pitch leadscrews rather than 10 pitch. The 10 pitch (.100"/rev) are so slow for surfacing wood or simply getting from one end of the travel to the other for drilling holes etc. I believe most of the heavier machines like the Bridgeport, Lagun, Tree etc. use the coarser pitch thread leadscrews. Grizzly makes a mill specifically for wood but I don't see tremendous advantage in it's design over other mills designed for metal cutting.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Wood-Mill-Wood-Metalworking/G9959 Someone may have mentioned this earlier in the thread.
Burton, I understand your space limitations but thought some of the above might be of interest to others.
Thanks
Nelson

IIRC the grizzly woodworking mill is pretty much the same as the metalworking one that I referenced earlier. It does have a larger table which is a good thing and uses a different pulley set that gives a max 5000 RPM. I do woodwork on mine all the time at a max 2760 RPM. The higher RPM should give a slightly cleaner cut but I haven't found it to be a problem.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Rich, Yes, that's a very low amperage for cut-out, especially since Grizzly says it's capable of 4.5A. And surprising since universal motors aren't even that expensive to make at higher HP. Sounds like this machine was designed to hit a price point, and they cut whatever they could to hit it.

Yeah, those "max developed" power ratings are funny. I didn't know that about them raising the HP sticker numbers without changing the motor!

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David Malicky