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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:32 am 
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I'd like to run an idea by you guys to see if you think it'll work. I'm building guitars with elevated fretboards and floating FB extensions. Like others doing this, I've found that the neck can pull up excessively under string tension due to flexing of the heel, especially if the FB is elevated fairly high above the top, as mine are, which increases the leverage working on the area of the heel where it begins to extend above the top. The heel, being end-grain and all, ain't up to the task without some help. (See photo of mando uke below to get the picture of the geometry I'm talking about.)

(The neck would also pull up excessively if the neck block collapsed inwards, but I've got that under control with the CF struts I've got inside the body, so that is not the issue I'm working on now.)

In the second photo below, you see what I've done on this neck to reinforce the heel. I've made a tenon out of a piece of walnut epoxied in there, grain running vertically (perpendicular to the FB). This goes all the way up to the bottom surface of the FB. I haven't yet strung up this guitar, but I'm very confident this will make the heel sufficiently strong/rigid. Kent Chasson has done something very much like this, and he said it works (although his FB isn't elevated as high as mine).

The thing is, I really want to use a butt joint, rather than mortise and tenon. So, my latest idea: replace the piece of walnut you see here with a piece that's 3/4" square in cross section, epoxied into the heel so that it is flush (or slightly recessed, actually) to the surface of the heel that mates with the body. To make it strong enough, I'll epoxy a piece of unidirectional fiber CF sheet onto each face, so that it it is effectively a square tube of CF with a wood core. I'll use a very stiff wood, too, just for insurance. I'm guessing that such a thing would probably be as rigid, if not more so, than my walnut tenon you see here - in any case, that it will make the heel plenty strong/rigid for the purpose. Am I explaining this clearly?

Do you think it will work? Bearing in mind how high my FB is elevated, do you think it will be strong/rigid enough? Thanks in advance for your input!

(For anyone wondering about the practical issue of bolting the neck on, I figure I'll install threaded inserts into the piece before epoxying the CF "skin" on to it. I'll have to drill two holes in the one piece of CF for the bolts to go through; that'll probably do a number on the drill bit, but I think it would work.)

Does anyone who was at Ken Parker's presentation at the ASIA Symposium remember how he constructs that "heel" of his?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:05 am 
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Todd: What you have now looks very strong and also what you propose sounds like it might be very sturdy. If you still have problems think you should look at box distortion. I know you are using the flying buttress braces inside but there still may be some deflection.A reduction in the back radius especially length wish may help and carbon fiber reinforcement on top of the back centre strip to prevent it straighting out. Think Rick Turner did this ,hopefully maybe he might comment. Good luck.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:11 am 
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Todd, two suggestions. First, if you aren't already doing it, CF 1/8 x 3/8" bars the length of the neck, almost to the end of the tongue. Second, instead of a tenon, just do a 1/2" x 1/2" spline through the heel. Third, you can add secondary CF along side the ones on either side of the truss rod, from say the 10th fret onward to provide additional stiffness where it isn't going to affect the truss rod. Also, since your top isn't going to vibrate on the headblock, why not allow the float just beyond it and allow the neck to rest on the top at the headblock, thereby allowing it to take some of the rotational forces?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:46 am 
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westca wrote:
Todd: What you have now looks very strong and also what you propose sounds like it might be very sturdy. If you still have problems think you should look at box distortion. I know you are using the flying buttress braces inside but there still may be some deflection.A reduction in the back radius especially length wish may help and carbon fiber reinforcement on top of the back centre strip to prevent it straighting out. Think Rick Turner did this ,hopefully maybe he might comment. Good luck.
Tom.


Tom, thanks for your reply. I will remain vigilant about box distortion. I think I've got a very rigid box. See photos below. The first photo, in which I'm gluing the back to the rims, gives you an idea of the dimensions of my back bracing, and how I've designed that part of the equation to keep the back from flattening. (That wooden stick running at an angle between the neck and tail blocks was just wedged in there temporarily to get the blocks to line up properly with the back.)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:02 am 
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dberkowitz wrote:
Todd, two suggestions. First, if you aren't already doing it, CF 1/8 x 3/8" bars the length of the neck, almost to the end of the tongue. Second, instead of a tenon, just do a 1/2" x 1/2" spline through the heel. Third, you can add secondary CF along side the ones on either side of the truss rod, from say the 10th fret onward to provide additional stiffness where it isn't going to affect the truss rod. Also, since your top isn't going to vibrate on the headblock, why not allow the float just beyond it and allow the neck to rest on the top at the headblock, thereby allowing it to take some of the rotational forces?


David, thanks for your reply. I appreciate all your suggestions. Suggestion #1 (CF rods in neck, almost to the end of the tongue) - Done. Suggestion #2 - I don't think a 1/2" square spline through the heel would be strong enough (I know from experience that a 3/4" hardwood dowel in the heel isn't strong enough), hence my current idea to use a 3/4" square spline clad in CF. Suggestion #3 - I'll give some thought to adding secondary CF along those lines. Your final suggestion is also a very good one, and is an approach I've been considering. What I might do is go ahead and build according to my plan, with the whole tongue floating, and then, if I'm getting too much flex in the heel, I could make a shim (discreetly inset from the sides of the tongue) to go under there.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:09 am 
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Todd: That box is about as strong as any one could make it. Super job...!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:06 pm 
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You didn't say in your PM or 1st post: is it going to be a bolt-on, or a Stauffer/Turner type adjustable neck?

My solution for this was to use a 3/8" hollow steel tube CA'd in the neck heel and filled with a 1/4" walnut dowel (optional, but I didn't want to have any empty/hollow space). The bolts fastening the neck run through the steel tube, it works. There is no deflection in the heel and it remains light. For the record it is a stacked heel.
For the neck I think what Rick does makes the most sense: to dado both FB and neck stock so that the CF rods are glued 1/2 in the neck, 1/2 in the FB. I use 1/8" x 3/8" rods, it seems plenty: the truss-rod is slightly tightened to avoid rattling, but serves little purpose.

I didn't use any CF tubes in the body as I am allergic to the look, but built a fairly complex "double-Spanish" neck block countering rotational forces on the upper bout. It is built out of 4 pieces of mahogany, the grain going in 3 directions. I didn't want the added weight of blocks, CF tubes, glue and so on. The guitar remains light and stable 6 months after completion.

Your back bracing looks interesting, wide and low, and capped with CF I assume? I'm curious, any reason?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:00 pm 
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Todd, I've been thinking about a turnbuckle from the heel to the underside of the peghead? :D

One thing I'd suggest is to use something stiffer than walnut (like eastern maple) for the spline. Every little bit helps.

The cf laminates seem like a good idea and I've thought of doing that myself. Unfortunately the only way to know is to try.

There are a number of ways to solve the problem but I have yet to see one that's simple to build and lightweight. I'm currently using a tapered maple spline in a small butted heel. It's a pain to make but light.

Laurent, can you explain more about how your bolts go through the tube? Did you use machine bolts and thread the steel tube? Hanger bolts and its mostly grabbing wood?

David, the problem he's having is the heel flexing, not the FB, although that has to be taken care of too.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Thanks for your reply, Laurent. Much appreciated.

For the next few guitars, I'm planning a simple bolt-on butt joint, but I'd like to develop a design that could be easily adapted to an adjustable neck joint, with essentially the same heel/neck construction, either by floating the heel, like you've done, or setting the heel into a pocket in the body.

Using steel rod, like Rick Turner, or tube, like you, are options to which I'll give more thought. I don't want to weld this to the truss rod, like Rick does, but, on the other hand, it seems to me that whatever is reinforcing the heel needs to go all the way up to the underside of the FB, since the bending stress on the heel in my design is concentrated high up in that area where the heel transitions into the shaft. I suppose I could notch the top end of the steel rod/tube for the truss rod to go through. How did you handle that? Using a wooden spline clad in CF, I could just rout through it for the truss rod and the CF bars in the neck (I know, the router bit isn't going to be real happy about it, but it would just be thin sheets of CF that the bit would have to cut through; I might not run the CF skin all the way to the top of the spline). That way, the spline not only goes all the way up to the underside of the FB, but the CF bars in the neck will be epoxied directly to the spline where they pass through the heel area, giving me, it would seem, a nicely integrated, rigid skeletal structure.

As for the back braces, the wide, low transverse braces are like that so that they can pass underneath the centerline brace. They are capped with CF and are very stiff. The big centerline brace, also capped with CF, ties the bottoms of the neck and heel blocks together, to maintain the arched geometry of the back. The idea of the big centerline brace was also inspired, in part, by a guitar a friend built under George Morris' tutelage. It has a freakin' 2x4 running down the center of the back, and it sounds GREAT.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Kent Chasson wrote:
One thing I'd suggest is to use something stiffer than walnut (like eastern maple) for the spline. Every little bit helps.

Thanks a lot for your reply, Kent. Your designs have been a big inspiration. I used walnut on this one because it's stiffer than mahogany, but for the spline I'm envisioning, I'd use something even stiffer. Thanks for the eastern maple suggestion.
Kent Chasson wrote:
The cf laminates seem like a good idea and I've thought of doing that myself. Unfortunately the only way to know is to try.

Yeah, I guess I'm just looking for a vote of confidence from those who've been down a similar path, such as yourself, and/or the engineers who can quantify things in ways I can't and say, "Yep, that should work" (or not).
Kent Chasson wrote:
There are a number of ways to solve the problem but I have yet to see one that's simple to build and lightweight. I'm currently using a tapered maple spline in a small butted heel. It's a pain to make but light.

The CF-clad spline idea seems fairly simple to me, and fairly light. I'm thinking this time I'll make the neck extension (the piece of neck wood under the FB tongue) a separate piece, which will simplify the installation of the spline. Making the joint a butt joint will allow for a much lighter neck block, since it won't have to accommodate a mortise; I might even use 1/2" birch ply for the neck block, like Rick Turner does.

So, you're finding that the tapered maple spline is doing the job, without extending beyond the heel to form a tenon? That's good to hear. Again, though, your FB isn't elevated as high as mine. I also want to use this construction on instruments with more than 6 strings, like the 10 string guitar bouzouki I'm building right now, so it's gotta be really strong.

Thanks again!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:33 pm 
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Todd a few comments
- the walnut block is a fairly inefficient way of reinforcing the heel. It still leaves the endgrain at the surface of the heel taking tensile loads which is where it is least effective and you are relying in an endgrain to sidegrain glue joint. If you are going this way with a large tenon, there is no advantage in this arrangement over an integral tenon.
-Some have added a dowel though the height of the heel near the outer face. This is a better solution, but I have not found it to be necessary.
-Remember, in a traditional dovetail heel you have the dovetail tenon strengthening the heel, do not try to make too thin a heel for a bolt on butt joint.
-I find it EASIER to do a Stauffer joint with the heel set about !/4" into the body than to do a Flat butt joint. I am using about a 7/8" thick laminated neck block


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:22 pm 
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Quote:
Also, since your top isn't going to vibrate on the headblock, why not allow the float just beyond it and allow the neck to rest on the top at the headblock, thereby allowing it to take some of the rotational forces?


What David mentions here is absolutely true, I've done this for a while now and it works wonders.....it doesn't take much of the extension resting on the top above the headblock to cure the problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:59 pm 
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Resting the fingerboard extension on the top of the heelblock may seem like a solution, but if there is any heel movement, it can lead to a rising tongue.
I use an adjustable neck with the extension free floating, but even If I were doing a fixed joint, I would still want to have the neck extension free floating.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Resting the fingerboard extension on the top of the heelblock may seem like a solution, but if there is any heel movement, it can lead to a rising tongue


Hmmm, never had an issue with it, always different opinions and certainly worth listening to them all.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:10 pm 
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Jeff and Greg, I appreciate the input from both of you.

Jeff, thanks for challenging my thinking. Your comments have provoked me to think in some new ways about the issue, and already some new ideas are brewing.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:22 am 
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A few thoughts and a new idea I'll share with anyone who's interested...

(Any and all further input and/or challenges to my thinking are welcomed. I have no formal education in engineering; this is all just coming out of my own head, with the help of a few basic engineering principles I've picked up, mostly here on the OLF.)

Jeff pointed out that the walnut spline/tenon I showed is an inefficient way to reinforce the heel, and I agree. However, I still think it's a decent solution, and I still think it will work. It would be more efficient, from an engineering standpoint, to reinforce only the outer surfaces of the heel, where the tension and compression from the bending load occur. The obvious problem with that, though, is that such reinforcement would be visible. Given that that is a prohibitive factor (or is it? ...more on that later), we're left with putting something inside the heel, which can also extend into the neck block as a tenon, as I've done with my walnut block. Though this is not as efficient, it can still be effective, and can still take the load off the end-grain wood of the heel, given that the reinforcement itself is stiff enough. I believe the walnut spline/tenon I've used here will be plenty stiff, having plenty of long-grain material on both sides of the the neutral axis (note that where the neutral axis is located depends not just on the overall dimensions of the heel, but on the stiffness of the materials of which it is constructed; if you put an extremely stiff rod anywhere in the heel, the neutral axis moves to near the center of that rod), which will mightily resist the compression and tension forces, and thus leave very little tensile load on the end grain at the surface of the heel. So, I disagree with Jeff that there's no advantage to the walnut spline/tenon over an integral tenon (I assume that by integral, Jeff meant a typical neck joint tenon that is machined from the neck wood, as in a one-piece neck with a mortise and tenon joint). I also strongly suspect that the CF-clad spline I'm thinking about using will be effective as well - that such a spline will be so stiff that the neutral axis will move to very near its center and result in the spline itself taking virtually all the load, which it will adequately handle.

(As for the glue joint between my walnut spline and the surrounding heel material, I think there's plenty of side-grain-to-side-grain glue joint there.)

But, thanks to Jeff's prodding, I also have a new idea. However, it's time to get breakfast for my daughters, so this will be continued later...

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:06 am 
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Another thought Todd might be to epoxy in some CF at a 45 degree angle thru the heel, up under the fretboard - make a sled that holds the neck/heel at 45, then run it over the table saw as deep as you feel you can, then fill that with CF - I doubt that would flex at all, and add little weight. You could run more CF parallel to the heel beside these as well - about as stiff as it will get in that area.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:36 am 
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Todd, with all due respect, and I mean it amicably, I think you're over-thinking and over-engineering the whole thing.
If you used dadoed CF rods in the neck, preferably between neck stock and FB, the "horizontal" part of the neck will be as stiff as it can be, and the CF rods can extend under the FB extension to add some needed rigidity if you do a floating FB extension.
Stiffening the neck heel (the "vertical" part) can be done many ways. What Turner does with a steel bar welded 90º to the truss rod certainly works, I am sure. Drilling for a steel bar or hollow steel tube in the neck heel, separate from the truss-rod, works also, I can testify. I am also sure CF 3/8" round or hollow stock in place of steel would work as well, possibly, and be marginally lighter.
I am also sure that what you did will work: it will be pretty hard for the heel to bend along the grain of the walnut block and the glue line.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:04 am 
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Todd, I've been following this with interest. It looks like you're using part of the neck to support the fretboard extension and this is what I want to do with the two I have on the bench now.

On my first adjustable neck I used two 1/8" maple splines that went into the tenon and into the neck heel. This would work fine with CF too and was easy to install by just using the table saw to cut some slots. I then used two 1/4" CF tubes 1/2 in the neck and 1/2 in the fretboard to stiffen the neck and support the fretboard extension. Unfortunately this resulted in a very small but noticeable gap at the top where the fretboard meets the neck heel since the fretboard just sits on the top. Using part of the neck to support the fretboard extension would eliminate that gap and also eliminate the need to machine matching round-bottomed slots in the neck and fretboard.

With part of the neck supporting the fretboard extension it would be difficult to put in splines full height on the heel. I was thinking to use two 1/4" CF tubes (since I already have some) vertically in the neck heel as well as two 1/8" CF rods vertically in the tenon to make sure the barrel bolts don't pull out of the tenon. Just thinking out loud, but the 1/8" CF rods would probably be sufficient for all 4 locations and they would be easy to install.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:49 am 
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Thanks, Tony, Laurent, and Steve for the continued input and ideas.

Laurent, I may be over-thinking it, but I'm going to keep thinking about it until I come up with a solution I like enough to build. :D

A crucial factor in this is that my FB is elevated significantly above the top. This makes a BIG difference. I've made one guitar with a floating FB where there is just a small gap between the top and the underside of the FB (at first glance, you wouldn't even notice that the FB isn't glued to the top in the usual manner). On that guitar, there is no issue with the heel flexing (it does have a hardwood dowel in it - 3/4", if I remember right). Once you raise the level of the FB, though, the leverage exerted by the string tension goes way up, and the bending force on the upper part of the heel is much, much higher. My experience suggests to me that the heel needs to be stiffened A LOT to make this work. I seriously doubt a couple of 1/4" CF tubes or 1/8" CF rods, for example, would do it. Tony's idea might work. A substantial steel rod or tube, or a large CF tube, probably would work (though I don't know if any of these have been proven on a substantially elevated FB like mine), but there are construction and/or weight issues with each of those options that I'm less than completely excited about - not that I've scratched any of these off my list of possibilities under consideration, just that I'm not diving into building any of them until I've given more consideration to other options and exhausted my ability to brainstorm new ideas.

Here's my other idea, spawned by Jeff's reminder about efficiency. If the outer surfaces of the heel, where the tension and compression forces are concentrated, are stiffened, then the material used to stiffen them wouldn't have to be as stiff as what you need to use to stiffen the heel from the inside, because it would be working in a much more efficient way. In other words, it could, perhaps, be wood, rather than steel, CF, or what have you. Wood is pretty and can be carved, unlike CF or steel, so I can imagine ways of using wood that would be visible on the outside of the heel. For example, I could make a spline out of ebony (not the stiffest wood in the world, but pretty dang stiff), grain running up and down the heel (all the way up to the bottom of the FB), say 3/4" thick, that goes all the way through the heel, front to back (imagine my walnut spline; eliminate the part that extends to form a tenon, and extend it in the opposite direction right out through the heel). Once completed, it would show on the outside of the heel as a vertical black stripe that terminates where the curve of the heel straightens out into the shaft, with a semi-circular end. I think that would be quite handsome, actually. Moreover, I suspect it would be stiff enough, because the compression-and-tension-resistant long grain of this very stiff wood would be working at the two outer surfaces of the heel (on the inside and outside of the bending forces) as well as all the way through.

This would be a bit complicated to construct, but not too bad, I don't think. I'd probably make the neck extension a separate piece, like is typically done on archtop guitars, to simplify construction. I wouldn't have to deal with drilling, threading, routing, cutting, etc, steel or CF - a big plus, in my mind. The ebony would add some weight to the heel, but, with a butt joint and a thin neck block, and no heavy steel (except for the bolts and inserts) or CF, I don't think that would be too bad, either.

Have I explained this clearly? Any comments, criticisms, skepticisms, holes to shoot through my reasoning?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:07 pm 
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The more I thin about it Todd . here is what I would do (or at least try) .. this will even work on a one piece neck.

Mount the neck on the drill press at 45% and drill thru the neck heel area, in order to insert either solid or tube CF - 2 one on either side of the truss rod, with the exit hole somewhere past the half way height of the heel .. epoxy those in there - I highly doubt it will flex.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:14 pm 
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Thanks, Tony. Your input is much appreciated. I'll give that idea some serious consideration.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:36 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:13 am
Posts: 902
Location: Caves Beach, Australia
Todd, I did not realise that your walnut tenon was set into the neck heel until I looked at the picture again just now. It had appeared to be glued to the inner face of the neck heel but I now see that it was just blending in colour with the heel.
I retract whatever comments were made on this basis.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:27 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:13 am
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Location: Caves Beach, Australia
Other things to consider Todd are
- the rigidity of your neck block (typically with the grain oriented along the side and with a big chunk removed for the tenon) This is why I laminate a thin layer of vertical grain wood to outside and inside face.
- the position and size of fixings into the heel. Go too big on a top bolt anchor in the heel and you can take away a lot of the strength you have added with a tenon. I just use a lower bolt so this is not an issue to me


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:59 am
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Location: Rochester Michigan
Todd,

Have you ever heard of pre-stressed concrete?

The simplest way I could see of reinforcing the heel would be to drill a hole from top to bottom (i.e. from fretboard gluing surface to heel cap). Now you'll need to counter bore both surfaces to fit a bold and a nut each with a washer. You'll want to use as big a washer as possible.

Now find a bolt (or threaded rod) that's the exact right length and crank her down.

Pre-stressing like this makes is such that the steel bolt is taking any tension of the load and the wood will always be in compression regardless of the load.

No muss, no fuss.

p.s. if this isn't clear, I can try sketching something up to post.

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