Official Luthiers Forum!

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LMI white and Gorrila "wood". Any thing brown, I am beginning to hate green

thanks for the replies everyone! you've all been very helpful.

I finally figured out why I thought white glue (PVA) was animal based. It's because Elmer's glue has "Elmer the Bull" as its mascot. Closely related to Elsie. The story is on the elmer website (FAQ).

Mike

I'm one of those guys who prefer Elmer's aliphatic resin (yellow) glue. I find it wets the surface better than titebond & I can spread it thinner for less slip & easier cleanup. The difference is subtle... If I couldn't find Elmer's, I'd have no problem using titebond.
Like most people here, I use several different kinds of glue for guitar building. If I was only allowed one, it'd be yellow glue.

I love hide glue if only for the millions of things it has kept stuck together for thousands of years. For a "modern" (and veggie) glue, I like LMI's white glue better than any of the yellow glues. Why? Superstition. It dries to a stiffer, more brittle plastic, and I like to imagine that that translates into less damping. (And I like to imagine that less damping is a good thing.)
Epoxy? Same superstition. Epoxy pore-fill? Why not spray the guitar with auto body under-coater? And yet, many double top guitars, and lattice braced guitars are put together with epoxy, and whatever their limitations, excessive damping are probably not among them.
What about silicone? We put it in truss rod channels because it dampens vibration. It dampens vibration. Is that good? Maybe Martin was on to something with its non-adjustable truss rod.
Gorilla glue (polyurethane) has been panned here, but it is widely used in double top construction (the alternative to epoxy). It can be used without moisture, and has been recommended for gluing fingerboards because it doesn't introduce moisture to the joint.
No one has mentioned super glue. I like to find ways to avoid using it, but in some situations, nothing else comes close.
Why don't luthiers use plastic resin glue? Its long open time makes it popular with cabinetmakers.
Repairability? All of these glues lose strength at a very modest temperature . (Okay, not silicone.) In some applications, it would be better if the glue joint were not heat sensitive. (Who wants to be able to re-open the back center seam?) A neglected glue is resorcinol resin. Absolutely waterproof, more heat resistant than wood itself, it's been used commercially since the 1950's. I've encountered Japanese guitars that used resorcinol 30 years ago, but American luthiers don't seem to know it exists.
--My thoughts.

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Resorcinol glues and epoxies have toxicity issues. Not sure about silicone. Super glue is not consider toxic (they use it in surguries in place of stitches) but it is caustic as far as breathing goes.

Now, the $10,000 question. Can Gorilla glue be used as a pore filler?

Thanks Eric,

Mike

Mike,
I cannot answer your question but what a coincidence,yesterday I was thinking about what method should I use to pore fill the rosewood back and sides of my first build guitar.
Suddenly I had the idea, why not titebond glue? It dries fast and hard and it sticks to wood; about compatibility with varnishes I have no idea. One should apply with with a sharp pallet-knife, wait until it dries,and sand again until the wood is visible and no traces of glue except on the pores.
I have not yet ordered my varnishes (shellac for the top ) and tru oil for the back and sides but surely I will make some experiments with it and post the results.
Meanwhile, as anyone try this? Do you think it works?

Titebond does not dry hard enough for this, and most importantly it does not dry clear, but yellowish. Gorilla wood glue dries harder and clearer, but still not transparent. Sanding back those glues will gum up any sandpaper in no time, and I can't imagine what the pores will look like… As for Gorilla polyurethane glue, it foams so this is a no-go from the start.

Pore filling with hot hide glue is an ancestral technique, at least HHG dries hard and clear and is easily sandable.
Another ancient technique is to use oil, varnish or shellac and sand a slurry of wood dust and finish in the pores.
Some people use egg whites to seal and pore-fill, another ancient technique.
All this has been discussed over and over and can be found in the archives.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Laurent,

Many thanks for your answer.
I have read about egg white in the past but I I had the wrong idea that it was only to apply on the top. Now I have read "all about it "and I think I will try this egg white technique.

Hi all. My first post at OLF I've been on and off MIMF for years and, since I've recently ordered a new Martin, on the UMGF. I've been trying to get my luthiery career off the ground for, oh, way too long now, and have an about 75% done guitar built from the Cumpiano book. It's been sitting untouched in my shop for, well, the lifespan of my oldest child I'm really revved up to get it going this time, and have ordered some parts for a binding router machine.

Anyway, love this thread as I too am an animal-sypathetic veggie type dude, and have thought a bit about alternatives to HHG that might retain some of it's desirable properties. And I loved Eric's post, especially:



I agree that resorcinol would work for almost anything on a guitar, but also with Mike O'Melia that resorcinol is just kind of "intense": toxic, messy, hard to use, maybe overkill for almost anything on an acoustic. However, I was stoked to see Eric mention plastic resin glue (PRG). Herewith my plug for its use in instrument building: It's the brown urea-formaldehyde based powder that you mix with water. I used a lot if it in my cabinet shop job on large doors that had lots of joints and took too long to get clamped up for yellow glue. PRG squeeze out, dried to a knife edge over the round profile of a pipe clamp, demonstrates its extreme hardness - those edges will slice you open! The leftover in your pot will eventually become rock hard and will fracture rather than bend when torqued. Like Eric, I like to imagine that a stiffer, more brittle plastic translates into less damping in the guitar. PRG is type 2 waterproof, and is always described as having "excellent" heat reisistance. It's not as convenient to use as yellow or white PVA, but it seems more convenient than needing a hot water bath for hide glue. It can be mixed thick or thin, and the pot life can be extended by mixing with chilled water (a trick we used a lot here in 90 degree Hawaii). I bet using warm water might kick it faster. It has a long setup time. This is a downside compared to PVA. Your braces would need to stay in the go bar deck overnight.

Overall, I think different parts of a guitar are best served by various adhesives. The tutorial here on binding with CA glue is excellent, for example. PVA won't really stick to carbon fiber. Some, like Mario Proulx, have found polyurethane great for this application. Luckily for us bleeding heart veggies, it's not hard to avoid animal products in our instrument building.

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

I'm an animal lover too, but they have to be cooked just right!

Why keep looking for something when there is already a glue that fits nearly all of the requirements of most builders? Seems to me that LMI White, is pretty close to HHG in hardness, has a reasonable open time, dries pretty clear, has a short clamp time, and doesn't creep. In addition, I don't think it contains any hazardous material, or harms any animals in it's processing or advertising! We've had this discussion before, in different forms, but there always seems to be someone who doesn't want to use the products that have been tested and proven to be good for guitar building. What's the need for something you can buy at the BORG? Just because it's cheap? Well, that seems really short sighted. If you are going to build a guitar, use something that works. If you spend $15 on enough glue for a couple of guitars, you will not have broken the bank, most likely! If you have some grudge against ordering from LMI, then use Titebond Original. It has similar properties, though doesn't dry quite as hard, or as clear, but lots of guitars have been built with it, and you can buy it anywhere, almost!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I really agree with both Todd and Waddy.

No way would I abandon PVA or LMI's glue! While PRG has some great properties, I would think it not appropriate/worth the hassle for a lot of the joints in a guitar. As a veggie alternative to HHG, I was mostly thinking about it for gluing top braces, and/or other structural joints where it's brittleness and resistance to creep, I speculate, may impart similar qualities as HHG. It's just something to consider if one were inclined to undergo the hassle and see if it improves anything. Good point about the glue line coloration - gaps are more visible under finish than with PVA, so it's probably not the best choice for show joints. I didn't know about it needing 70+ degrees to cure - rarely an issue in the tropics! The powder is of course something you don't want to inhale, but PRG is pretty benign once mixed, somehow I find it less toxic and yucky than resorcinol. I don't feel it has worse gap filling ability than PVA glues. It seems if anything more cohesive than PVA to me. The cured 'puck' you end up with in your pot the next day is very like epoxy but harder and less flexible.

Again, it seems to me that each use of adhesive in building a guitar, or anything, requires its own consideration as to which adhesive seems best.

Peace,
Sanaka

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...

I can appreciate your not wanting to use factory farmed animal products. I guess if one needed a label you could call me a vegan who eats some meat once in a while. Fish I catch myself or organic raised local chickens. I do this for my health as well as the planets. I think about these things a lot as a naturalist/biologist/ecologist type of guy. I think we are all responsible for our impact on the planet. One question about this is what about all the creatures that are impacted or harmed when making a petro chemical based glue ? All the toxic chemicals, the contributions to global warming etc. the land that was destroyed to make the facilities that produce the glue. Petro chemicals are somewhat animal based anyway. From a environmental stand point I think that hide glue would have less of a impact than other glues. I would rather drink water down stream from where someone threw out some hide glue than poly glues, or Urea-F glues or a lot of others. While I don't agree with the cattle industry and haven't eaten beef in over 30 years and I understand the problems of methane gas, over grazing, anti biotic use, prions, clearing rain forest for grazing and on and on, ........ I also know they don't kill extra cattle for glue. The stuff they use is going to be thrown out, wasted. One could make the argument that by using animal glue at least you are using more of the animal and reducing waste and lessening your carbon footprint. It is a more "natural" product.
Anyway the LMI white or Titebond original should work for you. Good luck and welcome to the forum.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

A number of years ago I contacted the engineers at Franklin glue about clamping pressures, etc. and here is their response:

http://www.ukuleles.com/Technology/bridgeglue.html

Hope this is useful...

aloha,

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David C. Hurd
http://www.ukuleles.com

Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. Through the Looking Glass by L. Carroll

"Since my house has burned down, I have a much better view of the moon"

I know some vegeterians that eat fish.
I really like using fish glue, I think it has some hot hide glue qualities.

Howzit Kawika!

Good to 'see' you here

Peace,
Sanaka
(from Kona side, friend of Dr. LeeLoy, you Chladni'ed my guitar top way back when)

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...imagine there were no hypothetical situations...