Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all. I do not want to come out as grumpy, BUT I do think its streange to call the OLF auction an auction as it is now. why not call it a sales page as thats what it is now. ! Better would be if you had the auctions and let it start at a higher bid and then proceed forward from there. instead of calling it an auction and then let anyone, even outside of the auction "anonomous" buy the items !. If its supposed to be a beneficial thing for the members of the forum then I cant say its good. now it seem more like trying to make money by calling it an auction to drag potential buyers. .
we do have a classifieds section !

Lars.

It's called an auction because the price is not set. And we have been running these since the beginning. There are some great deals running though there I see no reason for anyone to be grumpy about it.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Its an auction with a reserve price. No different than eBay. Some things make no difference if they sell unusually low and thats fine, some things should have a reserve. Its not "unfair".
The winner of this last auction is a well respected regular contributor of the OLF that bought the auction set for the reserve price and asked to remain anonymous. No big deal.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Plus in the entire history of the OLF I think we have only sold 3 or 4 auctions with a reserve.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Would there be a way to mass e-mail everyone that is registered on OLF when an auction is posted? I know that e-bay doesn't do this - but it would be nice to be notified of the posted auctions in some way.

You could even consider doing it via twitter.

I missed out on a couple opportunities because I didn't get online in time.

Just a random suggestion - not a complaint at all!!!

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Great idea Paul
Ill start announcing all our auctions via twitter. Since we are running fast auctions, that might be a very good way to get the word out.

Thanks!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Well Oftenly on ebay, when it says "Buy now" are usually companies selling something they have LOTS of ! so lots can buy from the buy it now option. I never saw this as a profit making company. This is not ebay ! it´s only a one time deal "madagascar roosewood" etc. (auction ends "fridag" at noon). Whats the point on bidding, and to be a leading bidder and getting hopes up to get a good deal , when someone can anytime just buy it !. Why would anyone spend "time" to go online just to place a bid to win a set of wood !!. if you want to get what you paid for a set of wood, maby its better to sell it for 225 like last time right away, instead of letting us or "me" take time of to go online and place a bid that later someone without guts enough to be un-anonomous buys before time is due. I can clearly understand the reasoning for stopping having a BR set go for 400 US etc. but then again lets check up the term auction - highest bidder wins . Brock Lance, I am not being grumpy ! and its not a big deal for me, but at times it feels like money is king at places where favors use to rule. hmm that sounded poetic . Please dont take me wrong now. I am not grumpy, I am though one who feels obligated to say something once I see something not right or fair. "in my opinion"

What if 60 persons had put a bid on one of the B/S sets and its 1 min left. then someone just goes in without notifying the rest and snatch it. is this fair ? . time is money and an auction is something one spends time to follow.
wish you could see me as I write this, I am not grumpy. just a little enoyed I wasn´t able to get me the Madagascar.

Lars.

Lars,

Don't know you - like 99.9% of your posts - but I have to disagree with you.

I have sold many individual items on e-bay and have done a "buy it now".

My thinking is: I have a price I want out of this item - and if someone is willing to pay my "buy it now" price - then my item is sold and I'm happy. Now - did someone get a "deal" on the auction? Well, that is up for debate.

All I know is this.... by setting a "buy it now" price, the seller (in this case OLF) is saying that they are opening up the bidding on an item, but if someone wants to jump in and pay the "buy it now" price - it is theirs and the auction is closed.

I understand that you are upset that you didn't get the wood you hoped for - but we were all made aware there was a "buy it now" option on this auction. If you wanted it REAL bad you could have stopped the bidding and won the auction by taking that path.

This type of auction is VERY standard procedure and I find nothing wrong with it at all.

I just asked if OLF could make an announcement of sorts when they post an auction so I'm aware of it (unlike e-bay), and Lance liked the twitter idea and said they would adopt it. I'm happy.

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P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

I think that Lars is saying that there is a difference between a reserve price and Ebay's "buy it now" price, which basically is just offering something for sell at a set price.
In my past auction experiences, a reserve price means that the auction item won't sell if the reserve price isn't met, not that it sells to the first person that reaches the reserve price. Could be that someone was willing to pay more than the reserve price if the auction had run its full course.

Understand that I am not complaining, as I wasn't bidding on the item, but I can see Lars' point.

FWIW, the set sat there on the thread for 6 hours and change without a bid. It had many looks during that time, but no bidders, and only one post, saying how great it looked. Most sets get an immediate bid. I would assume that most, were not willing to part with the $400+ reserve for the wood, which is not a cheap price for a set of wood, even Mad Rose. Allied has it for somewhere in the $250ish range, at present. Maybe this was a primo set, and that made the difference, but whatever the reason, no one bid on it for over 6 hours. Don't see any reason why it can't be sold at whatever price the seller desires.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Well. I am glad your glad Paul. I just dont think we can compare Ebays multimillion business with the OLF !! and "I" saw these auctions not to be a profitable business, merly a benefit for the OLF members ! . but I might be wrong !? . I have gotten Pm´s from others who share my thoughts, so, atleast I know I am not out on strange waters. !
I do think mr anonomous is on my side in this as he choose to be anonomous .

Waddy, I do agree, BUT in this case why dont the "bidder" simply bid on it !! for what they are asking ??
Alan, - yes exactly
Lars.

And what about the set of Koa that sold a few days ago for half of its market price? hmm? Don't tell me the members don't benefit from this. There are great deals to be had here.

This is a good deal for everyone involved, the sponsors, the members, the OLF... there is absolutely nothing to get worked up about. This is a big win for everyone.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I have been wondering for a long time if this site is non-profit. I don't suppose this is the place to ask?

Brock,

I can see what Lars is asking as well. In other "buying/selling" opportunities on the OLF you and Lance have asked that the deal be made within the thread and not on a side bar. Also, terminology had me confused on this auction as well which may have frustrated the bidding process. Might I suggest that in future we should hold to the ebayish terminology as follows:

Auction: High bid wins
Reserve: We will not sell this set for less than this so this is where the bidding starts
Buy it now Price: If anybody wants to not bother with the bidding they can just jump up to this price and it is theirs.

As the recipient of the low priced Koa set I too was a bit surprised that it went for the price it did (Is it coming to me yet?) and actually hoped that I might get out bid as I have enough wood to build more guitars than I will ever build already. So if you need to get at least "X$" out of a particular set then setting a reserve is not unreasonable. But I too hope that a condition of sale is that it all happens in the thread, that has been the history and I think that is the expectation, although we know that you guys can change the rules, it is your sandbox!

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

This is one of these "no win" situations. So no matter what we do someone is going to be unhappy.

We constantly hear from people who won't be around when the auction closes wishing they could be present or there was a way to proxy bid. So the buy it now component helps with that. Also, it creates some fear of loss in hopes to get a good fair market value from the set. Everyone has a chance to grab it at the posted price - the deck isn't stacked. If you see something you want you can either grab it now for a price that is a little less than market, or, take a gamble that someone else doesn't grab it (or bid it up) and get the item for a song. This also helps factor out some of the time zone problems that we are constantly asked about.

I really wouldn't sweat the reserve issue. We are not likely to run those often. We have even put BRW up without a reserve. In the entire history of us running these auctions (which goes back almost to the beginning) I think we have run less than 6 reserve auctions. I doubt that will change. But on occassion it might happen.

I still maintain that these auctions are a win for everyone involved. You guys get great stuff at below market prices, the forum gets money, and the sponsors get exposure and hopefully drive additional sales.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

well you said it, [quote]the forum gets money/quote] and there for this to me is why the auction should be" without this kinda buy it now deals" and again, LOTS and LOTS of posts are about how important a single word might be PARABOLIC BRACING etc, for further interest, talk to Howard . Now, Auction is not an auction ? Shane wrote
[quote]Buy it now Price: If anybody wants to not bother with the bidding they can just jump up to this price and it is theirs./quote] TRUE, although, IT IS NOT AN AUCTION then. !! Auction is bidding. " highest bidder is ..... etc. Ebay is a profit making machine.
I do agree to Edwards post and would also like to know the answer to this if I may.
[quote]I have been wondering for a long time if this site is non-profit. I don't suppose this is the place to ask? ED./quote]

Sincerely Lars.

I don't think that this is a "no win" at all. There were only two issues with the last auction

1) Unclear terminolgy

In this case you stated that there was a "reserve", fair enough. Then Lance posted that the set was sold for the "reserve". He likely (hopefully) meant that it sold for the "Buy it now" price.

2) These are "community" based auctions where everybody likes to know what everybody else is doing. In the spirit of the community the bids should be kept in the thread. Transparancy is the basis to all effect communication. Your rationale for requiring correspondance in the threads in other buying and selling activities (such as the swap meet) was to ensure that the site was not being hijacked by non-members. So one could say "it should work both ways". Keep it open. I am a tonewood guy (and a sponsor!) and I am not afraid to make my buying intentions known to the community.

Anyway, I don't think that anyone has problems with the reserves, and ultimately having some "buy it now" and maybe some without "buy it now" may be an option. My comments are all offered with the purest of intent. And I may even ship some wood for future actions !

Thanks Brock

Shane

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Canada

In the first place, an auction is a pricing mechanism. Before eBay it was almost exclusively used to sell commodities for which it was difficult to assign a certain price (like collectibles).

Now for the OLF auctions, this is not the case - we know the market value. In that sense, a "buy-it-now" option a little below typical market value can also be seen as some kind of protection for the bidders, to make sure they still get a good deal (and don't get lost in the excitement of an auction and overbid).

Before bidding, everyone can ask her/himself, what the auctioned item is worth to them personally. If the tonewood set is worth $200 to you, just bid up to $200. If you get it, great - you made a fair deal, if somebody else enters more, then that's also great - s/he got a deal for her/himself, while you didn't spend more money than the item is worth to you.

The buy-it-now is still an auction. It is just an auction with an upper bound for the price. If you value the item higher than the buy-it-now price, go and snatch it. If you don't, but somebody else does, what's the point in complaining? It just did accelerate the auction.

cheers, Christian

Chances are that someone's just going to buy the wood, so I won't bother bidding. I'm sure I'm not the only one taking this position and recognize that it doesn't require a policy change.

Chances are that not many people will be seeing any items I post for sale in the Classifieds, and items there now sure don't seem to move quickly because of it, so I probably won't renew my subscription. Again, I'm sure I'm not the only one taking this position and recognize that it doesn't require a policy change.

A lot of the administrative choices seem to be about ensuring revenue, which is fine and would be less aggravating if you'd just be up front about it. Otherwise we try to make sense out of things that just don't make sense and get annoyed in the process.

Christian - I hear you ! although you totally misst the point !!
[quote]some kind of protection for the bidders, to make sure they still get a good deal (and don't get lost in the excitement of an auction and overbid)./quote] Please, we are adults here. If a person wants to bid on a set for 1000 even if it´s worth 100, it would still be up to him. I am totally ok with having a sale where "buy it now" is there. Just dont call it an option just to drag attention and fool those who really think they can win on a bid ! an auction is an auction, and a buy it now is a buy it now. and belongs to the classifieds. Now, for the continuation of this thread I will try only to read what is said, but not post more as I think I have said what I wanted to say.
Last thing though , if I wanna BUY IT NOW, I can go to Allied, Stew mac or wherever. All I was trying to say is "auction is a bidding based concept" AND Ebay and similar are not the founder of the term auction, and are not fully following what an auction really is. so it is a bad example to use.
Although Wikipedia is not a truly trusted source, here is what it says about auction.An auction is a process of buying and selling goods or services by offering them up for bid, taking bids, and then selling the item to the highest bidder.

Lars.

I know, but there's so much literature on 'the winner's curse', 'bidding frenzy', 'competitive arousal', or 'escalation of commitment' suggesting that even adults lose their head in auctions. But yes - there are probably more exciting auction formats than the OLF auctions in which that stuff is more likely to occur. Nonetheless I think, that the buy-it-now option still makes sure, that buyers get a good deal (as the buy-it-now is always somewhat below market value and includes shipping, so you'd pay more at Allied or Stewmac).

With regards to your Wikipedia definition. A buy-it-now is still an auction. Just an auction with an upper bound for price. The door is still open for bids - just that if somebody decides to bid at the buy-it-now price, s/he'll get the item. But that's not different from somebody coming in a non-buy-it-now auction and placing a bid at market value (except that in that case the door is still open for someone to overpay).

Also reserve prices are common features of auctions and have been around forever. It's just a way of saying that bidding starts at $xxx. So the reserve price sets a lower bound for the price in an auction.

In the case of the Madagascar Rosewood set, it was still an auction, as it was open for bids between $450 and $550. Yes - it was a pretty boring auction, there was not much excitement, there was no way to daydream about getting the wonderful set for $120, but it was still an auction. Just an auction with a lower-and upper bound for the selling price.

Christian

That's a great point, Christian. The daydreaming is a big part of the experience for many.

I thought that on an eBay auction with a "buy-it-now" option, as soon as someone makes a valid bid, the "buy-it-now" option goes away. Perhaps if the OLF adopted this procedure, Lars et al would be happier?

Cheers,
Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Christian, have you ever been to an auction ?? sound like a big NO. Ebay is not what an auction is, it sounds like you are refering to ebay and similar "auctions" ! wish are just using the term auction but are not applying to the true rule of one. Also, a reserve prices is if I am not mistaken a price the seller will not go under !! but one can go above it !!! in this case noone had a chance to go above it, nor got a chance to.
Last but not least, I live in Sweden, SO - shipping is not included nor is tax and customs !!

Lars.

Lars, I have been to auctions.

There is not "one" auction rule. I guess what you are referring to is the english auction (see wikipedia). There are so many other auction mechanisms, some that favor sellers, some that favor buyers, some with open bids, some with sealed bids, some with ascending bids, some with descendng bids, some that use a "first price" mechanism (the bidder with the highest bid pays whatever his highest bid was), some with a "second price" mechanism (the bidder with the highest bid pays whatever the second-highest bidder was bidding + some increment like $1).

You could look up what a 'dutch auction' or a 'vickrey auction' is in wikipedia...those are just some examples of auction mechanisms. There are so many more.

What Lance and Brock are offering is an auction. Just maybe not the kind of auction you have in mind.

best, Christian