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hi all..............have you guys had any success with gluing coco with HHG? i would be greatfull if you could share your findings with me as im starting a another commission with coco and i hate using epoxy........joe

Joe,

I would imagine HHG would work just fine. I used to use TiteBond regular but I used Fish Glue on the one I'm currently building. I tested the joint strength and it is amazing (even better than the TiteBond). Thanks to Michael Collins for the Fish Glue. In fact, all four of my current builds are done with Fish Glue, with the exception of the OOO 6-in-line which was initially built 4 years ago. It is now 1/2 TiteBond and 1/2 Fish Glue since I disassembled it and reworked the whole thing.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Hide glue is fine for coco bola. You should wipe the joint with alcohol or acetone first. This will remove and surface oil. I'm looking into making the switch to fish glue like Bill mentioned myself.

I too tested fish glue/epoxy/titebond on cocobolo.....I'm now using fish glue for most of my gluing operations. It can be a pain as it's super sticky/tacky/messy, but it makes a darn good bond.

Cheers,

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Gwaltney Guitars

I hear the fish glue is almost epoxy like in strength.

Is this the type of fish glue you guys are talking about?

http://www.conservationresources.com/Ma ... n34_18.htm

Thank you,
jack

I got my Fish Glue from Mike Collins so he would be better to answer for where mine came from. What I do know is, this is good stuff and I don't believe at this point I'll be looking back on my glue choice. Tacky? Sticky? Youbetcha! But then, that's what I look for in a glue. That, and compared to HHG and TiteBond, it has a long open time. Strength? I think it is stronger than TiteBond and equal to HHG but better because of the longer open time. Scientific or lab tested proof? I have none, but as tested in my shop after 30+ years of using other glues, for me, it's Fish Glue. I never tried it before these builds and I'm sold, (so far). If it passes the time test, which I have confidence at this point it will, I'll always use it. Thanks a million Mike Collins!

Oh, I might also add that based on everything I've read about it, you must use a longer clamp time because it sets slower. I try to plan all my glueups on structural items to dry overnight. Non structural Items I unclamp after about an hour. As far as I've experienced (and heard) there is no creep. I've glued my bracing on with a vacuum clamp and leave it under pressure for about an hour before removing it. Then I let the tops and backs set for two days, after which I tested for glue strength and they are glued very tightly and strong.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Mike, pretty much everything I've seen recently has suggested that wiping any joint, oily wood or not, with solvents or thinners is weaker than ensuring that the joint is freshly scraped or cut prior to glueing. Fine Woodworking was one of the sources for tests that confirmed this.

[quote="Bill Hodge"]Joe,

.... I tested the joint strength and it is amazing (even better than the TiteBond). Thanks to Michael Collins for the Fish Glue. ...
Bill, how can you tell that it's stronger than Titebond (I'm not saying it's not)? A good glue joint will fail the surrounding wood and the joint will be intact. So how can you tell?

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Not to start an argument,but over the years,I have noticed that some various tests featured in Fine Woodworking reappear some time later by a different author. The same tests show different results than the first go round. one that comes to mind was a test of edge holding in wood chisels. The second go round,by a different person had much different results.

I am featured on their website making wooden planes. My old journeymen musical instrument makers are featured,too.

Yes this is the lee valley brand also sold on lee valleys site
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20019&cat=1,110,42965

I have noticed that with fine woodworking test myself.

Hide Glue works fine on cocobolo. Just make sure the area that you are going to glue has been freshly sanded first. I don't think wiping the joint down with acetone is necessary. In fact, I think it hurts the joint.

Ken

My test of FG vs TB a few years ago was pretty simple .. two pieces glued up in each test, cut from the same board, same clamps, let dry overnight. The next day, the TB failed taking no fibres and came apart with less force than the FG pieces. The FG took fibres with it, not a clean joint - I havent used TB on coco ever since. What started this was a fingerboard that let go while setting a neck, at the 14 fret area - I then grabbed the extension and couldnt believe how easily I tore it off the neck blank - that one got epoxy.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Hi Tony

Where do you get your Fish glue in Canada is it the stuff Lee Valley sells.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Hey Jim,
You were right to call me on this one because the way I stated it, it certainly looks as though I stated it as an absolute. I really must train myself to read and re-read my posts instead of writing in a rush and potentially mis-leading someone of little or no experience.

What I missed in the parenthetical quote was the two words "I believe". I thought, and meant to say "(I believe even better than the TiteBond)". But I didn't so that was a misleading statement and for that I stand corrected, thanks. In my second statement in this thread I mentioned my "non-scientific" testing in my shop. Most all experienced woodworkers such as myself and likely you, are aware of the fact that there are approximately 18 commonly used joints in woodworking. The butt joint being the 3rd weakest only above the Cope & Stick joint, and Stub Tenons. The strongest joint (arguably) is the 1/2 Lap followed by the Bridle, & Splined Miter joints. FWW has done a series of scientific tests on joints and glues. Their tests of glue strength puts TiteBond III at the top of the strength test but as you know, this is a weatherproof exterior glue and would make it virtually impossible to disassemble a guitar without destroying it. Regular TiteBond (PVA or AR), tested at strength just above HHG with the HHG being stronger on a loose fitting joint. I know with many years experience that tight fitting joints produce stronger joints (or do they?) Well, yes and no. I don't really care to expound on the details of that as it would be too lengthy and my post is already getting wordier than I intended.

Now, on to my "unscientific testing". Knowing that the butt joint is the 3rd weakest, and that we are jointing thin wood, if a joint will fail at the glue line it would be in this type of scenario. I tested thin 1/4 sawn & thin plain sawn glue joints (cocobolo all at .095") with PVA (TiteBond) and Fish Glue. Same size pieces from the same batch of wood, perfectly planed and fitted butt joints. As I mentioned the test was not scientific but it works for me. After letting the joints dry over night I grabbed the glued pieces (plain sawn) by the edges and applied force bending the outer edges inward. In several instances (though not all) the TiteBond failed at the glue line, sometimes a mix of the glue line and slivers of wood next to the glue line. In the case of the Fish Glue on the same plain sawn cocobolo, I was unable to get it to fail at the glue line using the same Technique. Now the 1/4 sawn was a different story, neither type of glue failed on the glue line because in all 1/4 sawn wood, the glue joint is going to be stronger than the surrounding wood due to the orientation of the annular rings. Another test I performed was a simple test with a scraper on the surface of a piece of American Black Cherry. I chose this due to it's tight pores and it's being a non oily wood. A large drop each of TiteBond & Fish Glue on the smoothly planed surface of this piece of wood allowed to dry for two days. I then simply took a thin flexible paint scraper to try and chip the glue from the surface. The TiteBond popped right off leaving the wood beneath it virtually unscathed. The Fish Glue however was a different story, I had to really work at it to get it off the wood and as hard as I tried, I was unable to remove it from the wood without damaging the surface of the wood (severely). Like I said, this is unscientific but convincing for me. That said, I have been using TiteBond and AR (Carpenter's) Glue for over 3 decades with great results and it by all means is a superb glue. However, I am highly impressed with what I've experienced in the Fish Glue (thus far) and especially like the fact that when it dries it's virtually transparent unlike TiteBond which dries yellow to yellow brown and sticks out like a sore thumb under a clear finish if you happened to miss a little during cleanup which the very best of us can and have done if being truthful. OK, I've rambled too long, and all that was just to say, thanks for catching my mis-statement and bringing it up because I certainly don't wish to mislead anyone.

Well, gotta go feed the hungry equines and head out to the shop!

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

hey Fred .. yep, lee valley .. I simply buy a new bottle every year ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I've read that when doing repairs on hide-glued joints you don't need to scrap off all the old hide glue. That is the fresh hide-glue will bond to old stuff that is there. Is this the case with fish glue, too?

Thanks,

Stefan

Howdy Stefan,

Hopefully Mike Collins will read this thread and chime in on that. My first thoughts are , that since Fish Glue and Hide Glue are both high in Collagen, that it would adhere well in a repair. That said, I've not had to use it in a repair situation with Hide or Fish Glue. I did remove a back on one of my current builds in order to put a different breed of wood on the back. The original back was glued with TiteBond and the new back was glued on with Fish Glue. I do make it a practice however to remove all the old glue when possible or to at least have a freshly sanded or planed surface before re-bonding.

Mike, you out there?

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

thanks for all the input guys,,,,,i have been thinking about this fish glue for a while.....as most of us are enamoured by anything hide gluey.........not sure where i could get it in the uk though

Joe Kelly;
I love your binding !

Fish glue available in bulk from http://www.norlandprod.com
I buy it by the gallon and share it with my students and other wood workers.

It's freezable with no ill effects to it's strength.

It permeates a joint -especially on porous woods and is as strong or stronger as the new glues.
Tacky as all hell!!
Keep a wet cloth nearby when using it.
The smell is not as funky as hide glue.
Shelf life is a long time if sealed or frozen.

Check out their site for real scientific language as to it's makeup and properties.
Order a gallon & share it!
thanks to Bill Hodge for being so enthustastic about it !

Mike

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Mike Collins

Hey Bill, thanks for expanded report. Hope I wasn't to flippant in my initial response to you.
Thanks,
Jim

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I have been using fish glue for a while now & it is working very well for me. (Especially on Cocobolo!) My question is - What is the shelf life? I bought two 16 oz. bottles from Norland a year & a half ago. It has been stored in the fridge the whole time & one bottle has never been opened.
I have tested the stuff from the first bottle recently & it seems as good as the day I bought it.
Also... I found I needed to add a bit of water to get the flow I wanted. Is this common?
Thanks, Dan

There is a technical report on fish glue on the Norland site. They have a table showing the different concentrations of amino acids in calf skin glue (hide glue?) and fish glue. They believe it is the lower concentrations of two amino acids that allows fish glue to remain liquid at room temperatures. Hydroxyproline and proline. The thing that strikes me is that the remaining amino acids are pretty much equal in concentrations. Im not a scientist but it makes me think they are pretty similiar in their makeup.

As for glueing cocobolo I was told by a fairly prolific guitar maker that he uses CA to join the backs on his cocobolo guitars. Dont know why exactly. I believe he uses yellow glue for most other joints.

Warren.

Joe, Madinter in Spain stock the Lee Valley Fish Glue, I buy mine from Kremer Pigments in Germany http://kremer-pigmente.de/shopint/index.php?cat=0201&lang=ENG&product=63550

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.