Official Luthiers Forum!

I am interested in becoming a luthier; I have been looking for schools to attend for 2010 (or 2011), and it seems the closest one to where I live, Florida, is the ATLANTA GUITAR WORKS BUILDING AND REPAIR PROGRAM. I was wondering if anyone has attended this school and has something to say about it (good or bad). I have NO MONEY so I was also hoping maybe there is some sort of scholarship that a student can earn to go to a luthier school; If not I guess I will just have to work my ass off to get the money; Anyway, any advice to help me in the right direction for this trade is appreciated. I know this is what I want to do with my life right now and I'm sick of wasting time I'm twenty and have already wasted 2 years doing nothing.

I think you are right about that for sure; In fact, I think I will go buy a book on guitar maintanence next week. But to get a job doing this I figure having professional schooling would make my chances much better. It is not like I can just go to a luthier and ask him to show me how to do it, because believe me I've tried haha.

There is one thing , Training from someone that knows is better than guessing. I am formally trained and many ideas I thought were right ,were not ,thus my signature , you don't know what you don't know till you know it. If you want to become a pro , expect to invest some serious time and money .
I know there are some that are self taught , but they are very few and far between . Be realistic , there was a reason the apprenticeship takes 4 years. How many here are making a true living from this , and I mean paying all expenses without the aid of a pension or spouse . Also being a pro means you have to have insurance , pay the taxes and overhead. trust me it ain,t easy. It can be a great hobby but to make it as a professional you need more than a few tools and luck.
I suggest you learn from the best if you want to be the best.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

So if I have to learn from the best to be the best that leaves one question...who is the best?

It's taken me 35 years to get to where I am...and sometimes I wonder if I'm anywhere at all. The last 15 years have been full time, and before that nights and weekends. For years it was one large tool a year (and still is), and anytime I had extra $$, small tools.
I did go to the Red Wing school the first year it was run (early '70's), but at the time it was violin family only...so I built a guitar, mandolin, and got the instructor to expand his views. By the 3rd year they were building guitars, and continue to do so. Mostly, I learned from a couple of books and trial and error. It's quite a bit easier these days as it's pretty much handed to you. Anyone willing to dig far enough can get a lot of help.
Best advice to give...
"Don't quit your day job!"

Buy some books, dvd's and tools and do a lot a research on sites like this and the Internet. I'm not knocking schools but their gonna teach you what they want to teach you not necessarily what you want to learn. For what they charge you can get yourself some nice tools and books and have a go at it.

I saw a guitar Kit on e bay that went for $140.00. Lacewood, Spruce and all the trimmings....no tuners
Get one and make a start...at least if you go to school you will know when not to sleep in class!
You dont need as many tools as you think.
The archive here is huge
Good Luck

You might check out the Bryan Galloup School He has a 6 month program and you build an electric, acoustic, classical and archtop Use to be acoustic 12 fret cutaway and not now for sure now which they do). I know he was setup or at least was with the VA as a program that qualified for those benefits. I also think he is set up with the Michigan higher education stuff or was getting there so folks could get student loans A quality school with great instructors. He also provides housing as part of the school. Sure worth calling and Susan (Bryan' wife) will know the whole process if they can do this now or not. I JUST KNOW GREAT SCHOOL AND YOU WOULD BE WELL SERVED


If you can wor it out and do a school particularly a longer school with multiple guitars better off. If not then try and find someone who will let you hang out and work in shop and learn. That can be hard as they perfer someone who can start helping with stuff from the go and school would help with that also. If not then go with the kit and start going, but try and see what can do with school if can, you will be further ahead in the short and long run.

I've was laid off from Jan .1 except for 3 weeks in April. But I got back out this Monday for a job that will last until Nov. 14th. with a possibillity of a transfer to another job that might get me to Dec. but I'm not betting on it. Last Friday I got a letter from the unemployment office stating that pell grants can be gotten up to $5300 for schools and trade schools. And unemployed workers I guess are getting preference for the grants. You are also allowed to collect your benifit checks while in school. Problem is I don't know if the Lutherie class qualify for the grant. I'm going to look into it . I was thinking about checking out Fox's 2 week course and maybe his 1 week small shop production course or if I could get the max then next years Somogyi class might be an option (Probably the only way I'll be able to afford that is with a grant ). I figure it can't hurt to see how Fox does it. And I've been wanting to check out the Portland area. Tom you might consider that and at least when done you will have a guitar.
Maybe when I get laid off again I'll take a road trip with my camera and visit all you guys and see what you can teach me.
Tom I saw that school you are talking about and it seemed like it was geared more toward repairs to me. You would probably do better to check out some of Kent Everetts Stuff as he is in Georgia too. You're also welcome to stop by my place sometime and join in our club. You are only in Odessa and I'm in Tampa. The club members have been known to let other members barrow their videos and dvd's as well.

Whether or not you decide to go to a school start reading everything you can about instrument making.

Add to that researching everything you can about wood (Understanding Wood by Bruce Hoadley, is one I'd recommend.)

Read every book on guitar making you can get your hands on.

Find all the various instrument making forums like this and start asking questions. Be exhaustive in your search and try to find out not just how to do something, but why. The whys are more important than the hows if you want to excel.

If you have woodworking experience great but refine iyour skills with affordable small projects that are detail oriented and that will push you to your limits.

Spend time on well-known guitar makers' websites and pay attention to the small differences in design that distinguishes them. Try to find out why they have chosen to do things in certain ways.

Play as many well-made guitars as you can and learrn to hear the very subtle differences that various woods make, that bracing design make, that strings make etc. Play some crappy guitars too. Play play play.

Don't give up.

Chris, that would be great if I could get a pell grant for school, but I'm gonna check into it before I get my hopes up. Also, at that Georgia school I was talking about, I think you build two guitars while you are there, and the plus side is it's not super expensive. That is really cool we live in the same area I would totally be down to join your club and learn a thing or two about this trade and make some connections.

Beware of some of the Ebay kit offerings. There are a few new sellers that are buying the dregs off GMC. They have mixed parts and I have seen where they have a 000 kit with a dred top. The curvature of the 000 won't fit on a dred top. Also the braces are mixed , as 000 bracing is a different radii than dreds.
Still if you know what you are looking at , you may find a usable kit. buyer Beware is the mantra of ebay.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Have to agree with most here. There's a "culture" in this arena, the one most of us are not members of. It takes serious scratch to belong to this culture club... basically you buy your way in. Or... you find out if this is even your cup of tea first. Do what was suggested here and build a couple or 3 guitars, violins, ukes, whatever. You may discover your all thumbs. If you stick with it, great. I have been building for 15 years on and off. Am I a luthier? Depends on who you ask. My friends and family think so. Do I make my living on it? No, there's no way on God's green earth that very many folks do or could make a living being a luthier (the single builder, small shop type). Here's another analogy. I've read lot's of threads in lots of forums where lot's of beginner hobby builders think outloud of becoming a luthier. Remember as a kid if you had a model train and you used to think how great it would be to actually work at the hobby shop around all that stuff all day long? Know better now right? My .02.

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

I have always thought a Kit is an excellant way to start. That dobro in my avatar was the first guitar I ever built. And the body was from a Martin OOO kit and neck and board from StewMac.
Heck, I was even thinking the other day that it might be cheaper and faster in the long run to to just buy custom kit's from LMI. Have them bend the sides joint the top and back plates get a CNC neck. Build the thing and voice it and send it off to Joe for a finish and there you go. You could probably get away with hand tools and some routers and a bending pipe fretting tools a couple of jigs(gotta have some jigs) and band saw.

I would like to humbly offer you a suggestion. Get a "real job" first. If you want to go into repairs, then you might have an easier time of it but strictly building guitars is an incredibly difficult way to earn a living. I have dedicated the last 6 years of my life to lutherie. As much as I love it, I am beginning to question whether it is worth it. I could be so much better off financially doing a number of different things. I feel the best approach is to have a job/skill you can fall back on. Then you can learn lutherie on the side.

In reality, this is hardly any different a lifestyle decision than those of a poet, sculptor, painter, etc... The words "starving artist" were not created without reason. I don't want to dissuade you from finding your life's passion -- but just be aware that you are in for a very difficult road and many simply don't have the perseverance necessary to succeed. Not to mention, you might be much happier learning the trade without worrying about whether you will be able to afford rent and food.

I am strongly considering getting my master's in education and doing lutherie part-time. To be quite honest, my future looks relatively bright as a builder but it is still a difficult journey. Unless you are intellectually unable, I strongly suggest you get at least a bachelor's. You are young and you have your whole life ahead of you. If you don't get an education and lutherie doesn't work out for you - the odds are high you will be stuck with financial difficulty the rest of your life. Make wise decisions in the beginning as they will enable you to achieve things you would otherwise not be able too.

By the way, I live over near Daytona. You are welcome to stop by sometime and I can give you a little more insight into a builder's lifestyle.

Kind Regards,
Simon

(visit my site for contact information if you want to get in touch: http://www.fayguitars.com)

I can call myself a professional in that it is my livelihood . I learned from some great people. Steve Kovacik , David Nichols , CF Martin and 10 years of experience. It isn't easy but it was worth it. Many people here have given me great ideas . Todd Stock , Sylvan Wells , Jim Warwick . Alan Carruth. Todd , Sylvan and Jim I had the pleasure of meeting on more than one occasion. Free sharing of information and experience is how you learn new skills.
This is not an easy thing to learn but well worth the effort.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I wish I could offer a different suggestion but this is simply the truth.
At least the "starving artist" won't need a large space filled with expensive tools and a stock of wood....
Best is to take lutherie as a hobby and see where it leads.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

For crying out loud he's 20. He has plenty of time to try out some stuff. Now's the time he has the chance to go a school and if he finds out in a year he doesn't like it then no big deal he'll be 21 and has plenty of time to find his way yet. He can take on another job too and keep building just like the most of us. I agree with you Peter, see where it leads you. Give him credit for wanting to learn something. Nice thing about being 20 is you got time to change your mind and try different things till you find something that fits or sticks. Not to mention the energy.
Simon, I'd like to invite you to the Florida Guitar Builders Association also.

Chris,
I have been meaning too - I've just been awfully busy. But I will make it one of these days.

Just to clarify my original post. I am certainly not trying to paint an overtly negative outlook -- just a realistic one. I am just a firm believer in getting an education first before you do anything else. It just makes much more sense in the context of fronting finances for tooling, etc... (which we all know costs quite a bit). A bachelor's will open many doors for you to financially support your journey as a builder.

Learn as much as you can about as many things as you want. My father was a cabinet maker and I learned much about wood and woodworking from him. It is something I always had a passion for. As I got older and found guitars , I took much of that information with me. If your passion is guitars take it and run with it . I know there has to be someone in your area that has the same interest .
In todays economy , I do not envy you. You are going to learn much in life , and the best advice is , find what gives you passion. Then think , do you want to make your passion your job ,or do you want your job to be your passion. I hope you find something from these posts that will help . Most of us started as hobbiests . Learned more and took it a step farther. Chris Paulick , is well known from his you tubes , and he shares what he knows. Todd Stock , also shared what he has learned , I also . There is more and better information on the web today then 10years ago.
Do not let anyone sway you ,if this is what you want to do. Find your own path to your destination. Good luck on your journey and may it be a good one for you.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I feel this post has turned from "whats a good school, or what is a good way to get into this" to "YOU DONT REALLY WANT TO DO THIS" hahaha I understand this may be hard to make a living off of, but this is just simply something I want to learn. I want the knowledge. I don't plan on doing this the rest of my life; My plan really was to go to a school for it then come back find work and be able to pay for college doing a job I love. I read online somewhere a professional luthier makes somewhere close to 30,000 a year. Now I understand this may be hard to support a family on; however, I'm 21 thats enough money for me. Plus gigging with a band and guitar lessons.

(Sorry, I got kind of long winded.)

Having been through Robbie's class a couple of times, I can tell you about it. Robbie's an excellent teacher. He is part of Red Rocks Community just west of Denver, so that perhaps gives some legitimacy to it in the eyes of grants and student loans people.

Also, being connected to the college, you have the opportunity to take other classes to either diversify yourself, or better prepare yourself for luthiery. I'm not a pro, but I bet classes in business, bookkeeping, small business accounting, taxes, would be useful to someone trying to start their own business. Also, should you decide luthiery's your hobby not your living, having a couple years of community college behind you could be a good start on your next path.

As for the classes, he teaches a couple of steel string classes, classical classes, and a high gloss finish class. There are also classes making mandolins, archtops, and violins taught in different terms by other instructors. There was a repair course last year too. Generally in each class, you build one instrument over a semester. Some students do take more than one class per term, but it is a lot of work. Additionally, there are classes in fundamentals of woodworking, furniture, turning, carving, design, etc. The shop is large and well maintained with plenty of tools and space.

I'm a teacher, so one of my pet peeves is sitting in crappy trainings (which sadly school districts seem to specialize in), and Robbie does a great job. He explains things well. He shows you how to do things. He is able to step back and let you do it and able to help you fix it when you mess it up. And the quality of the instruments that come out of his students is impressive. I was at a show recently, and in terms of general quality, fit, and finish, the average student instrument from Robbie's program would have been head and shoulders above half of the things people chose to show. (Well, maybe a third of them)

Most of the luthiery classes are 4 hours, one evening during the week, then all instrument classes meet Saturday morning for 4 hours. This is not enough time to complete your work. You need to plan on being in the shop or working at home quite a bit to keep up with the work. Most students there are taking one woodworking class per semester, but it is possible to do more.

Taking Robbie's class is one of the best things I ever did. I had a terrible experience in 9th grade woodshop but have always desired to build stuff. Now I build guitars! That is soooooo cool.

Thanks Robbie.

Now all of that said, I've spent too much time and money in school to not believe it's useful and important. I would recommend to everyone that they get as much education as they can when young. Life just gets busier and busier and getting back to school gets more difficult. Yes some people can learn quickly on their own and are slowed down by the system, but school can open you eyes to possibilities you may have never considered and that piece of paper can open doors to opportunities that would otherwise be closed.

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Mike Lindstrom

You sure that didn't say spends 30K a year?
Don't believe everything you read. You know you have to get people to buy those guitars. I've talked to someone who had Fox's 2 week course and said it was worth every penny and minute.
That's another option if you can't move out west and spend that much time. You can get academics at HCC. Sadly they don't still have IA classes over there as far as I can see from online. I took some classes (auto CAD 10, Trig., Phyics, and Construction stuff) there 25 years(wow! where did the time go? You weren't even born yet. ) ago and they were building a shop for IA teachers. But I guess that most schools have drop IA these days???

Tom,
You can always go over to the IBEW ( Electricians) union hall and apply for the apprenticeship program and get a paying job with benifits and learn a trade and go to school at nights and build when you can. I think they start out around $13hr. might even be more. You just are not going to make 30K a year starting to build and being green.

You are 20 -- give it a shot.

Something think about:
The vast majority of "Lutherie" performed professionally is Repair work, not building new instruments. This means that the bulk of these jobs are in Repair, not building... When you think of Lutherie, do you associate this with a career of Musical Instrument Repair... or do you want to Build new?

I think there are a couple different ways to do it.

If you want to go the tech school route -- find one that offers an actual course work leading to an AA or something like this in Repair. There are only a small handfull of these in the USA -- so be prepared to go to them. Red Rocks is one, Red Wing is another, and I am sure there are a few more... but only a few. You can later supplement this with some week courses if you wish, but don't start with those expensive 1-Week "Luthier courses".

Another route I would suggest looking at a well reputed mom and pops Music store that is known for it's repair work (And for its lengthy backlog) -- see if you can do some part time work starting with doing setups and learning from the master repair guy.

If you do Route #2 -- consider buying a couple books and buying a couple garage sale beaters to practice doing setups and repair work. Do "Free" setups for all your friends guitars.. Get a feeling for the time and energy required for this. Learn the basics of fret levelling and crowning, nut and saddle making, and neck relief adjustments... then go have a talk with the guitar shop folks and see if you can pick up some moonlight work.

Good luck on your quest.

John