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I use McFadden's lacquer and buff it out to a high gloss after 5 days from the last coat with no problems. Prior to buffing I sand it with 800 dry, then buff with the dark brown Mazerna(sp?) then the fine grade.

Here is a sample: http://schrammguitars.com/siburg_009.jpg

David,

In your opinion and experience, how is the shrink back factor with buffing out after 5 days? How does the guitar look a few months down the road?

When considering how many coats are necessary for the finish to be sufficient to be properly
leveled, sanded and buffed in its final stages, the process needs to be made clear.

When shooting lacquer, it's important to understand that the final wet sanding is not the only
sanding that's being preformed as the finish is built up and worked toward the end result in
its quality.

Once the first three coats are sprayed over the filled wood, they need to be sanded level and
flat before the next set of three coats are sprayed. Those next three coats are then sanded
lavel and flat before the final coats are sprayed.

The final few coats should be almost glass flat right out of the gun. There is very little
sanding necessary to level and have the final spray coats ready for the buffer.

I always wet sand to 1200 grit before going to the buffer where the heat is a factor that
will work in a negative way against the final result and quality in the finish.

It's impossible to wet sand...or dry sand for that matter....lacquer after only five days and
get a respectable professional gloss finish after only five days. The finish will always pull
in and shrink more than is acceptable since the finish still contains most of the solvents
that serve as the transport media for it. I love the look of an old Martin or Gibson, but
only on an old Martin or Gibson. I want my new guitars to look new....for as long as is
possible with a nitrocellulose lacquer finish.

All lacquers continue to pull and and shrink for quite some time after the guitars are
out of the shops or factories where they were built so it's not that long that they stay
looking brand new and flat and glossy anyway. That's one of the reasons I switched to
the UV cured polyester finish that never shrinks, never ambers and changes color and
never checks and cracks as the woods under it expand and contract with temperature
and humidity changes like the lacquers do.

Patience is a virtue that proves its worth in the finishing of fine guitars. Let the stuff dry
before you work it and the results will not only be better, but they'll stay better longer.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher

Really great information here.

Same things apply to polyester? I have been wrestling going between nitro and poly and have done a fair amount of lacquer but never poly.

My assumption with poly is that you spray it and its done - let it dry for a week and finish up.

Haans,
I do appreciate a nicely executed varnish finish on a mandolin and a beautiful French polish job. Those
finishes have a different set of final parameters or characteristics when it comes to what is acceptable or
considered of a professional quality when it comes to application and final results. I have seen, though,
varnish and french polish finishes that are on guitars from builder who are claiming much more expertise
than the finishes exhibit. They have been lumpy and inconsistent and sophomoric or amateur at best.

I did find my solution for finish as have many other builders as they're looking to end up with a finish
that looks new when the guitars are new. As Todd above, I also know that there has never been a nitrocellulose
lacquer finish that stays flat and glossy for very long after the guitar leaves the shop where it was built. My goal
was to offer my customers a durable finish that is flat and glossy and one that will stay that way for as
long as they own the guitars that I build for them.

I wasn't trying to take anything away from those finishes that inherently show some texture, have less gloss
and aren't as durable because there are plenty of players who love them and look for them. Most players
or guitar buyers do want a clean, smooth, glossy finish and those who don't mind less....even when the
builders try to cover their lack of finishing skill by saying that it doesn't matter....are less in number. That's
obviously why builders make so much investment in their finish and related equipment and techniques and
as many or more are sourcing out their finish work to any of the talented finish shops specializing in guitar
finishes. I've heard several builders explain away their finish quality with the old, "I ficus my time and energy
to tone and playability since they're what really matters." Yes, they matter a lot, but what attracts a player to
a guitar initially so that they can enjoy those all important aspects of the instrument is the appearance and
the quality of the finish.

I do have to say, though, that your tone in your previous post is the kind of thing that has chased a lot of
the seasoned and well known builders who used to frequent this forum away. They have better things to do
than argue about or defend the methods that have proven themselves and have made their guitars desirable
to a broad customer base. We come here to offer help and advice to those who are looking for it, not to argue
and have a condescending posture taken with us and our methods. I wondered where all of the fine builders
had gone when I came back after months, but learned quickly, at the hands of a few, why they're gone. It's
a real loss for those who are looking for help and not just to bolster their own reputation and to boost the
perception of their work and knowledge.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Excuse me?
For someone to come on this thread and make statements like:

"It's impossible to ... and get a professional gloss..."
"What is acceptable, considered professional"
"Let the stuff dry before you work it...the results will be better, but stay better longer..."

seems just slightly beyond opinion.

My original statement offered an opinion based on the possibility that there are a lot of ways to "skin a cat" finishing wise. Depends on what you are looking for.

Your "professional discourse" was dismissive, continues to be dismissive, and to suggest that I and my "kind" are responsible for chasing you "professionals" away from this site proves the point.
I might suggest that some of you "professionals" chase away others with quite a bit of knowledge that sits outside of your "luxury liner" boat of "wisdom".

Over and out.

I'm thinking that 220 grit sanding scratches in the wood can show up in the buffed finish if it's exceptionally thin and buffed "green".
They may show up a day or so after buffing what appears to be a scratch free finish.
Nelson

Haans,
Exactly. I hope people enjoy learning how to get a finish that looks old and lacks
gloss and smoothness from you guys. See ya.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

We have a lot of very good builders who seldom post or have completely disappeared because of people arguing with their methods presented as answers to posts. This is too good of a resource to ruin with arguments, I say respect the pro builders, and the amateurs, this is an info site not a debating club.

I will never step on the toes of the old masters, this is one of the 1st things I learned as a electrical apprentice a long time ago, I developed a thick skin real quick.

Fred

_________________
Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Very well said. Like my signature says, this isn't a contest.

Edit/ I'll add, back to the original topic. I buffed one after 2 weeks. It looked great, like a mirror, and smooth as glass. 2 years later it's got craters that look like the moon. I suspect these "craters" are places I drop filled. I wait at least a month for nitro.

_________________
I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

When we speak of older Martin and Gibson finishes, we should probably also mention that although they may be Nitro, it's quite different from the Nitrocelluose finishes we have today.
The EPA and other factors have changed formulations. I was playing a 1931 OM-28 I have
the other day and looking at the finish and it's remarkably glossy. These early Nitro finishes,
within the first couple of years of use, seem quite hard and hold a gloss very nicely. I've seen it on several other 1930/31 or so guitars. As the 30's went on, the finishes change slightly
and it's rare to see that gloss on original finish guitars. This OM, though worn, has never had
any work done to it and the finish is quite glossy. So, there is more to it than just age, though
that certainly is a big factor. There may be evidence to say that Nitro finishes never do finish
shrinking completely, though the rate of shrinkage slows a lot by the time a few decades have gone by. This has been my experience anyway.
Best
Bruce

_________________
Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

"Very well said. Like my signature says, this isn't a contest."

Amen! Wouldn't it be nice if folks could just get along?

I was away this weekend and just saw this thread. Some of us appreciate builders like Kevin taking the time to post here with an opinion based on many years of experience with many, many guitars. So I am sorry if some people don't think he was deferential enough in his answer, but please, for the sake of all of us, quit trying to drive away the best sources of information we have. This has happened before and we are all losers because of it.

Peace, Paul Harrell