Official Luthiers Forum!

Firstly my apologies in advance for a long post.

Some of you know my friend Colin Symonds, a Professor at a London University who in his spare time makes fabulous steel string and classical guitars, lutes and violins; is a great player of all of these (apart from the violin ) and he also repairs and restores old instruments for the Royal College of Music. He is also a passionate lover of mahogany. Last year he suffered one of life’s many ironies when while crossing a road he was hit by a motorcycle courrier, caught his left hand in the bike’s chain and lost the tips of the fingers and thumb of his left hand. Colin bore all of this with amazing fortitude looking forward with “the glass half full” mentality. He didn’t want to play guitar by adapting his technique Django style as he would always compare this unfavourably with his playing of old and was grateful to have achieved and recorded what he did. I have played since I was twelve and the prospect of not being able to do so again would drive me nuts so we had talked about the possibility of new instruments that Colin hadn’t played before where there was no benchmark for him to compare and came up with the Hurdy Gurdy and acoustic lap-slide guitar. Colin has been incredibly kind and generous to me with his time, experience and materials with my recent lute build and in the past acting as a great sounding board for my guitar making that I want to give something back – and acoustic lap slides are instruments that I make

Early in June I told him a story and made a proposition. First the story . . .

In August 1975 Debbie and I got married and moved into our first house - a two up, two down old terrace in Middleton in between Manchester and Oldham. The house had a cellar and in there we found a rather decrepit but nice old corner cupboard. We loved it and thought that one day we'd do it up. As we moved house to house it came with us and occupied various dusty corners. When we moved to our present home twenty six years ago we found out that our next door neighbour, a doctor, did antique restorations (the same person "the bureau" came from). He told us that the cabinet was Georgian and it was mahogany veneer on the doors and sides. One door was loose and he took it to examine (he still has it - I must get it back) and the rest of it stayed in the garage and when that was converted to Debbie's work-room it moved to a shed at the very bottom of our garden - about 400 feet away from the house and up many windy paths !!. This shed filled up with the usual crap and eventually split apart. This years project became clear the shed and build a patio that is a late afternoon/evening sun trap and in May the shed was cleared with many trips to the dump and burning the rest. Well we came to the remains of the Georgian corner cupboard and it looked really tatty with the veneer flaking off, but being older, wiser and a guitar maker I decided to take a closer look before consigning it to a Viking funeral. Guess what - the shelves (thin and quarter circles) are solid mahogany, and the curved door under the veneer is made up of four pieces of solid mahogany - just under a metre long, 70mm wide and about 18mm thick when you wind out the curvature. I got excited and put them in my workshop. Well this cabinet was made some time between the 1780's and 1820's so this is old wood. I decided to sand back to a surface on one piece of the doors and this is what I found:



I’d say it’s Cuban but whatever it is it’s fabulous, old and was itching to become a multi-piece acoustic lap slide guitar. I offered to make Colin a Red Kite acoustic lap slide with this wood – and to my delight he said yes. Colin being Colin, you can’t get ahead and the quid pro quo was that he wanted to make me one of his Torres classical guitars in exchange as he wants me to explore playing Celtic style arrangement with a nylon string instrument. This builder exchange thing was pioneered by JJ Donohue and Same price some months back and they posted here on the OLF.

Fast forward a few months and Colin’s Red Kite is here. This is the third Red Kite I have made and wanted to make this one rally light. It has a six piece mahogamy top and six piece back of mahogany around a fabulous strip of Zircote (sent to me by Bob C with an order whose only possible use was in one of these instruments), bubinga neck block, English walnut binding, very old Brazilian Rosewood bridge (sent to me by Colin) , Old Rio Rosewood headstock veneer, nut and end graft and b/pear/b purflings. The fingerboard is the same mahogany as the back and sides with Old Rio Rosewood veneer, rope frets and English walnut bindings. The tuners are Gotoh with hand made buttons from the same wood as the bridge. Scale length is 630mm. The finish is hand rubbed pre-catalysed lacquer - I have still to finally buff out the finish and so there are a few marks in the bridge area visible in the photos:











At 16:38 on Saturday 12'th September 2009, Colin's Red Kite soared and sang for the first time. This is what I e-mailed to Colin:

"It is everything I was hoping for and to say I'm pleased is an understatement. I had about ten minutes to play it before I had to do an hour or so taxi service for Suzy and Jess - I had a big smile on my face. When I came back the bass had opened up HUGELY. This is a mahogany top and they are slow to open up but what I am hearing right now is as the Yanks would say . . . awesome and very open, that's 250 year old mahogany for you!!. As I built it very light I have kept the nut height and string height lower than on the others I made and it sings so sweet. Tomorrow I'm going to take the nut and saddle on my Red Kite down a couple of mm and see what happens to the tone."

Yesterday I did a recording - this is just me having a lot of fun with Martin Simpson type behind the slide harmonics and ad libbing around "It Ain't Necessarily So". Lots of mistakes and slide bar clattering and you can hear Debbie and Jess in the kitchen in the background but you can hear the instrument's potential. This instrument's sound really excites me. It's in D minor tuning (DADFAD) and is recorded using a single AKG C1000S microphone and mixed down with flat EQ and no effects added:

Colin’s Ain’t

Well Colin's building again and pretty soon will be playing again too and I get to go full circle to the first guitar I ever had and play nylon strings again - but a handmade one. I've never ever had a handmade instrument made for me by anyone other than . . . me and it feels great.

A big thanks to JJ Donohue and Sam Price for getting this whole concept going - I can honestly say it's been a blast !!

Thanks for watching and listening. Colin will be along in a minute telling you about his (or rather my) guitar. All we have to do is meet up and swap instruments.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Wow! That is so great! The guitar looks beautiful and the story is even better. The ziricote strip looks pretty snazzy too. I can't wait to hear about the guitar Colin made for you. Swapping instruments is such a good idea.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Sorry, it's another long post!

I really didn't know after my accident whether I would be able to build instruments again, I knew I wouldn't be able to play again, certainly not guitar or lute. So, Dave's kind offer to make me one of his lap-slide guitars was an offer that I couldn't refuse, so of course I said yes.

I have been trying to persuade Dave to make a nylon string guitar for a long time now, I used to use one for playing the Irish harp music and much preferered it to a steel string its softer timbre just fits the Celtic sound.

So, after Dave's offer we dicided that we would do a guitar swap and I'd have a Red Kite and Dave would get a 'Torres'.

Late last year the RCM asked me if I would make a guitar as a prize for the top student at the College (think best student at the Julliard!). I decided to make a Caucasian spruce/Cypress guitar, but as insurance I decided that I would build two, at this point I wasn't sure that my reduction in the finger department would allow me to make any, but making Dave's lute pegs gave me confidence to have a go. I build my steel strings using all of the usual power tools, but with my classicals I like to build by hand only in the true Torres style, so the second guitar would be insurance for cock-ups as I would be building with 1 1/2 hands instead of my more usual 2!

The prize guitar has now been awarded to the winner, and it turned out well with a few adaptions to my usual building techniques. So, I decided that Dave would get the guitar's sister, this guitar is called 'El Levantine' as all of the woods, Cypress, Caucasian spruce and Sweet Almond, originate in the East of the Med.

Dave's been a true friend to me for the last few years, and gave me great support after my accident, I got a real kick in building a guitar for him.

Well, we've nearly reached the end of the road, Dave's put the strings on and made the Kite sing, we've just got to sort a date out when we can meet up and do the swap. Before that let me complete the story of the guitar for Dave, El Levantine.

I did a rough set-up, then took the guitar to the RCM where I spent probably the most enjoyable afternoon of my instrument building life when the three Professors of guitar we spent the afternoon testing and adjusting the guitar, as I said to Dave:

'I have had a great time this afternoon, I spent it with three truly great classical guitar players, plus your guitar. I seem to have spent the entire afternoon changing strings around on your guitar listening to it being played by them, debating which brand strings suited it best, then it was a matter of choosing which tension suited it. We tried Pyramid, Hannabach, D'addario, La Bella and Savarez, in medium and high tension.

Every 'classical' guitar is different and suits different strings, and high tension is not guaranteed to drive the top more, and so it proved with yours, it definitely preferred medium tension, projecting much better with more clarity and sustain, the high tensions just loaded the top too much (bit like mediums on my steel strings which always sound better with lights). After much debate, the unanimous choice came down to Savarez Corum, standard tension. So that is what will be on it. One thing we did notice is that it prefers carbon trebles of any brand over clear or rectified nylon, and the Savarez 'Alliance' trebles that come with the Corums are the best carbons. We also debated set up, and I did a bit to the saddle and nut, and now everyone is happy. You may wish to change it to suit you!"

The guitar was left with them and they kindly each recorded a piece on it for me. As you know I can't play any more so although they are clearly only second best at least I have some recordings for you I did get an order for three guitars from them, one of them does already play one of my tornavoz guitars.

The woods used:

Soundboard, Caucasian Spruce (Picea orientalis)
B&S, Cypress
Neck, Cedrela
Headplates and rosette, Sweet Almond
FB and bindings, Macassar ebony
Bridge, very old Rio rosewood

I'll post the recordings first.

Danza played by Charles Ramirez

Humoresque played by Carlos Bonell

Madrigal Gavota played by Gary Ryan


I couldn't decide which pictures to show you so take your pick!
























Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

This story is so incredibly touching and uplifting on so many levels. I am honored to know both of you and we are all better off as builders with your sharing of the project.

Both instruments are absolutely flawless and I only wish I could hear both in person.

Thanks for posting!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

That's some awesome music from both of your instruments. What a great testament to a pair of gracious gentlemen!

I'm sorry we couldn't hear you play it Colin, but it seems you have a few, adequate , stand in players at your service. Wish I could have been there to watch them try out your instrument.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Sheesh. I am in awe of both of you.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I think all four of you luthiers are awesome. You, Colin, Sam, and JJ.

Thanks each of you for your contributions.

Hutch

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Awesome

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

That's fantastic, gents!
Utterly, totally inspiring....

Steve

(I can't decide who came out on top, but currently I'm thinking you both did.)

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Truly magnificent and inspiring, what you two gentleman have done here. Thanks for sharing it with us.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Staggering stuff. Sanity in a world gone mad.
Thank You
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

As all have said before; many thanks to Dave and Colin. A great sharing and a wonderful story, very uplifting.

I will anxiously await hearing how each of you do with your new instruments. A new adventure for each of you.

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Peter

I really enjoyed this post, the writing, the clips, and the pictures.

Dave, the red kite is a fantastic build, the symmetry on the zircote back is fabulous, inspiring craftsmanship. Great sound too.

Colin, as usual your work is always impressive. From the clips, and the choice of colors and design on the rosette and purfs, its a guitar with lively spanish character. I like the plate on the back of the 18 hole bridge, it's always been a concern of mine that the edge of the holes on an 18 holer might start to blend together over the years, this would certainly prevent that from occuring.

Two exceptional luthiers.

Thanks everyone for your kind comments, I'm very lucky to have a guy like Dave as a friend.

Waddy, very perceptive, I do build Spanish guitars, not classical guitars! It's very simple to retro-fit a plate to the rear of the bridge. Just put a piece of masking tape on the back of the bridge and push a pencil through each of the holes, the pencil not only makes the hole but also leaves a black ring around each hole, which is a handy guide. Remove the tape and stick it onto the bone plate, tie block plates are available ready cut, and drill the holes on the dril press, chamfer the outside edge of the hole by hand with a larger drill and glue to the rear of the bridge.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

This is a great thread. I don't know anything about lap guitars but even so, the sound of it is quite niceand rich, and the wood used stunning.
Knowing a bit more about classicals, I must say Colin's sounds terrific! Is it possible to tell about the recording setup?

Thanks!

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Build log

Two wonderful stories and two beautiful instruments. Definitely an inspiration!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Sorry I meant Marc of course, not Waddy, (and this forum limits my chances of editing )

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Great stuff and beautiful work, both of you. Deep friendship combines with high craftsmanship.... powerful stuff. Colin, so glad you're able to continue to build. Dave, I've built a few georgian reproductions.... don't know if I could force myself to take sandpaper to something actually built in 1780!

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Dave
Milton, ON

Alex, the recordings were made in the College's recording studio, it's where I used to make most of my recordings

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Exceptional instruments from two exceptional men. Just beautiful!! I love that rosette, Colin.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Well, the end of the journey arrived (or maybe just the start of another journey), Dave and I met up today at his place and exchanged our guitars. That's the short version of what took place, but it was much more than that. I've 'known' Dave for a few years now through the OLF but we had never met up before. I packed the car with his guitar and a couple of my recent steel string for him to play with, and drove the 80 miles or so to his house, well after the slog round the M25 (the Brits will understand) I arrived at Dave's house and instantly felt like I'd been met by an old and valued friend.

It was also a chance to see in the flesh Dave's superb wide range of guitars. The first thing I should say is that the pictures we have all seen and the sound files we've heard do not do justice to Dave's instruments, each one had a beauty of it's own, but each was very much a Dave White guitar, they all had a family sound, that certainly appealed to me, this I believe is the sign of a builder who really knows his wood and how to shape the voice. The only thing that dissapointed me was that I couldn't play them! But it was a joy to hear Dave noodling on them in his immaculate style. He's not only a great builder but a stylish player as well.

Now onto the main course, when I opened the case, for the Red Kite, well I was blown away, none of the pictures, really, none of the pictures you have seen do justice to the guitar in the flesh, it is a true work of art, I LOVE IT! It has a very rich and complex voice with every note a feast of tone and overtones that will keep me exploring its possibilities for years, Dave really excelled himself, and I'm the lucky owner! Now I've just got to learn to play it.

So, here's a few pictures of the meeting, Dave will post some more.



Here's Dave playing my Redwood Cuban OOO



Dave playing his new El Levantine.



Dave and I with our new toys!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.