Official Luthiers Forum!

Frank Ford speaks glowingly of this stuff.
I've been unable to find any locally, but have a customer who thinks he wants me to use some on a restoration project.
Anyone here have experience w/ deionized H2O?
Or know where/how to get some?
Is it in fact THE thing to use?

TIA,

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve...is this water to be used in mixing HHG, or cleaning or what? If it's for glue, I can't imagine any benefit DIW might have over distilled water.

Why not just email Frank Ford for his rationale? Now I'm curious!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/DeionizedWater/deionized.html

Here's the rationale...Frank believes it attracts dirt better than other water treatments.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I recently got a quart of this stuff to use on a restoration project.

What did it work like?............Well,............... water!

I thought perhaps it soaked into joints a bit more easily (less surface tension?) and I liked the white plastic bottle it came in.

Try CQ Concepts Inc.

They will however ask you what you're using it for.........

Here in the UK you can get it in any of the car spares places it's used to top up the batteries, though most are seal for life jobbies now.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

DI water is used in the auto manufacturing paint processes, In the Chrysler paint shop where I worked as a Electrician we used it in the water based uniprime dip treatment and in the metal etching process before the dip prime. It is said to be hungry water meaning it cleans better and since its creation starts with RO filtering it is free of contamination. We actually produced cleaner water than what was used by the Canadian Club distillery to water down the whiskey and we occasionally bought a few tank trucks from them when our systems were down we could not return the water as our system was not food grade.

It was also used in the water born base coat paint booths, but I do not know actually used it for as I only worked on the automation equipment controls but never the actual process.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I would just use distilled water. I don't buy into deionized water being better for cleaning instruments.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

JJ, that's the article I couldn't find. You da man. I looked--in vain--for Frank's email address on his site, which appears to have been removed. I surely don't blame him if that's the case. Can you imagine the deluge of email he must get? Also, I had the singular bad fortune to attempt calling him, just to find it was his day off. Ah well....

David, thanks for the lead. I'll check them out. With my reasons in hand!

Filippo----

John, yet another reason to visit the UK. This time I can write off the trip. Do you suppose they will allow a battery through airport security?

Fred, interesting stories.

MRS, I'm almost persuaded like you. But that zero charge aspect has me just in a tingle.

Thanks again,

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve, I asked a few of my scientist friends about this years ago. One was a pathologist who ran the lab at a hospital, one a chemistry professor at a local university, one a high school science teacher. I got 3 completely different opinions on the potential usefulness of the stuff for our purposes. The chem professor gave me a bottle to play with (he was a skeptic) and it definitely got the wood wet but beyond that, if it had advantageous properties, they were subtle. But knowing him, he could have been setting me up with a bottle of plain water just so he could have a good laugh when I told him how magically it worked.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

So, Kent, what did the high school teacher think, as well as the pathologist? Any opinions worth repeating?
Thanks for chiming in!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Deionised water is just very pure water.

You really can't buy it bottled and expect that it will still be deionised when you open it - it will pull ions out of the packaging. You need to spend about $20k and buy a deioniser and use the water fresh. I've bought a couple of these units for various labs I've worked in.

When you deionise water it gets really thirsty for ions (salts etc) and will try to get ions from any source it can, in fact it can be corrosive if you get it in your eyes (according to the sales rep that sold me a purification unit). Because that act of deionising is just removing any (not quite all) minerals/salts etc from the water. If you fill a glass beaker with deionised water it will start to pull silica ions out of the glass. Being that pure is just not a natural state for water to be in and it will try to reach equilibrium with regards to salt (ion) content. The purity is measured by electrical resistance, with 18MOhm being about as pure as you can reasonably expect to get, this stuff will not conduct electricity very well, it's the ions in water that turn it into an electrolyte and make it capable of conducting a current, so pure water is pretty much nonconductive for all intents and purposes.

Anyone who claims that they get better results with deionised water (and I do respect Mr Ford) probably has water coming out of the tap that has lots of ions in it already (i.e. mineralised water, or hard water). Therefore deionised (even stuff that isn't fresh) will provide some benefit in terms of trying to get stuff to dissolve in it, as the solubility of most materials in water will vary according to how much stuff (minerals, ions etc) is already there. Your mileage will vary according to your local water supply.

Thanks Paul, the more info the better.
A local here told me that the stuff could have potential health risks...for instance that it really isn't potable. Something about pulling ions out of our body if consumed. Unless he was pulling ions out of my leg....

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

My local water company bottles deionized (reverse osmosis) drinking water, but only to pass out for promotional purposes. Some whole cities provide deionized water supplies exclusively in the pipes. So, it is not dangerous. However, any process could be defective. You could get defective food products from any source if the process fails. A failed reverse osmosis process most likely would just give you the raw product, that is, hard water. A perfect deionized water system as well as a perfect still would each just give you pure water. You would not be able to tell the difference. I think that some distilled water companies might not use a perfect still so that you might have some residual minerals, but I am not sure what they do for the distilled water in the grocery store. People use distilled water from the store in steam irons to avoid mineral depostits. Some of the bottled distilled water in the stores is not certified for drinking purposes. That does not mean that distilled water is unsafe, it just means that the company is not going to the extra expenses that food processing requires, such as periodic bacteria testing.

In chemistry class, we needed pure water for the various analyses. I think most schools and commercial laboratories use deionized water to provided "distilled" water called for in the procedures. Deionized water can be generated on site safer than using a still for distilled water. You could ask your local high school or college chemistry teacher if they use deionized water, and probably get a free jug. You could also drop a few hundred dollars and get your local Culligan Man or other brand to install a dionizer in your home or shop. These are sold for home drinking water.

Reverse Osmosis and DI water are not the same animal. DI water can be made by passing water through an RO unit, then through a cannister with DI resin in it. My well water at home goes into the RO unit at about 100 parts/million and comes out at about 2 before going into the DI resin. It comes out of the DI Resin at 0 ppm. I use DI water for my 180 gallon saltwater reef aquarium. It replaces the water lost through evaporation. If you did not use DI water the pollutant levels would get too high. If anyone wants some, I produce 2 gallons hour....I will try wiping some wood with it...

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John Nowicki

Thanks for the replies, guys.
John, it's too bad you live sooo far away... I'd swing by and take you up on your offer.
Try wiping a cracked guitar top to see if, indeed, it pulls out the dirt.

Thanks,

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Yep...
Main Advantage in our case:
Very low quantities of minerals in it that will stain things.... so you can use it on nice White maple and it won't turn Yellow or Orange during bending...

It is extremely corrosive... Water is "The Universal Solvent" after all... and they aren't joking...

You can buy DI water systems for doing Laundry, watering fancy Orchids, cleaning and such things... but it will dissolve Copper, Glass, and PVC pipes in about a year kill rubber gaskets in about the same time....... Eat holes in your nice stainless steel faucets...

It will clean your clothes like you have never seen... All you need is like 1-teaspoon of detergent in a load full of DI water...

As posted earlier... if you buy it in a bottle, it isn't nearly as good as if you have a real DI filter system in the house.... because it does dissolve the bottle.

BTW... Real Distilled Water will has the same corrosive properties... and I would buy that for $1.50/gallon at the supermarket for mixing Hide glue...

John

I wiped off a B&S set with DI on one side, and reguar tap water for the other. I can't say that I noticed much difference. My fish are happy though!

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John Nowicki

Thanks mates.
John (Mr. Rotten) did you try to get dirt out of a crack?
Just wiping a side wouldn't--I don't think--prove enough.
Unless, perhaps, the DI water actually took the grain pattern out of the wood. THAT would be impressive!

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Interesting note, I was cruising the TCP Global website and ran across some Devilbiss tack wipes, 1 version had cloth impregnated with DI water for Body shop use, I believe that other variety had an acetone solvent. Water for thought. I just changed my DI resin cartridge tonight and my hands were really clean,but I don't think DI water is safe for human consumption, the test spider in my basement I dumped it on did not live very long...LOL. I fill the cartridges, which make about 200 gallons each, myself with resin. Each refill costs about 25$ so it can add up. I don't have any cracked tops to try it on though. I was thinking about putting a dent in a piece of spruce and dripping some DI water on it to see if it would raise the dent as fast as regular water.

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John Nowicki

Filippo--- again.

John, that's an amazing shot. At the risk of side-tracking this thread (hey, it's my thread, right?) what else have you got growing in that stuff?

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Yeah, what steve said - more pics!

And if it's so corrosive how come it don't kill your critters? I guess you're adding salt to the water, yes?

More pics manana, The DI water is either added to flowing sea water in a sump with filtration (separate from the tank) for make up water or else is mixed with Instant Ocean Sea Salt mix for water replacement so in either case it does not have much of a chance to do any harm. As corrosive as the sea water is, you would never notice DI anyway. Adding about 3 gallons day to a 240 gallon system won't change much.

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John Nowicki

The problem with Salt water fish tanks, expensive indoor Orchid plant setups, African violets, Car batteries, and White Maple and Spruce guitar parts is that Water evaporates and leaves all the crud behind.

Indoor plants need to be repotted every few years or they will shrivel up and die from the immense buildup of salts in the dirt from plain 'ole tap water...

Salt water fish tanks have the same problem -- the salts and toxins have no place to go when the water evaporates... so they stay in the water and end up killing the fish... You add Pure water to replace the water that was lost... adding more Salt water to replace evaporated water just ends up making Salted Fish after a while...

Car batteries end up dying really fast when you put in regular Tap water for the same reason... and that you end up with way too much Iron and Chlorides -- which then basically clogs up the chemical reactions and kills your battery...

And... those beautiful White Maple and Spruce guitar parts end up getting Iron and Calcium stains in them... and sometimes pick up other stuff that causes them to turn Blue, Green, and even Black if you don't use the right Water.

Like.. say you use nasty High Iron Hard well water when bending Cherry sides... You could very well end up "ebonizing" the cherry in places -- leaving black stains... especially if you are a "Soaker"

Generally, drinking DI water or Distilled water doesn't cause any trouble.. unless you consume gallons of the stuff... Saltwater fish put into DI water would suffer a different fate completely... but so would Fresh water fish put into Salt water... I actually like the taste of Distilled water... it seems to taste "Sweeter" to me.

BTW, Rain water is generally pure enough (Unless you live in someplace like LA) and can be used in these home use DI/Distilled water applications... just not as easy to collect as it is to run a DI filter.

Good luck

John

fish waste and excess food, and pollution are taken care of by protein skimming and live rock in a saltwater aquarium, and also water changes when levels exceed limits. I have over 200# of Rock in a 180gal aquarium. I have had the same tank set up for 11 years. I have kept some of my fish for 8 years, the only reason I had to get rid of them was they grew too large. My corals have also thrived in the same tank. H2O for thought. You only add pure DI water to make up for evaporation, salted water is used for water changes. I don't think distilled water ia as reactive as DI water but I could be wrong.

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John Nowicki