Official Luthiers Forum!

The books sound very good. I was worried by the comments that make them sound like they stay in theory land. What good is the cube rule if you don't know how to make it effective?

James,

To use your metaphor, he gives you the cube rule, tells you how to use it, but you have to BYOV (bring your own variables).

Pat

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com

One has to decide if learning the cube rule, found in many textbooks, is worth $250 (or $5k).
Opinions vary.

Now I've seen some good tips in the book, my only critisism so far is that he says how he deflection tests his tops, but feels he can't tell us the figure he aims for at the moment, and personally I think that's fine as over sanding before finishing could destroy a top built on the edge but I wish he'd given us a figure to aim for and work from! I'm sure I'll pick up more as I go along and I also sure I'll find areas where I'll be frustrated by his "coyness"!!! They are so comprehensive I have many books and nothing comes in the ball park and I'd still recommend them.

Also my tonewood supplier sells tops like the one below of cheap as he can't post them out and you need your template to work around flaws can I test like the one in the photo?

_________________
Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

First things first, Thanks to Ervin, I tried the gouge on the brace end and I couldn't be happier about it, brilliant, just brilliant. I especially liked how the bit of curve in the gouge allowed me to fan the braces to nothing without nicking the sound board- always a concern in the past but no more. I also did a fare amount of carving using Al's method and with my nice sharp pairing chisel and with my more experienced hands that works swimmingly too. But for fanning the edges, I think it's going to be hard to beat Ervin's gouge.

Ok, some of you may prefer to stop reading here- nothing wrong with that unless your name is Chris.



I tried to be clear in my comments, Chris, which one of my comments didn't you understand? I'll be happy to add some clarification. I don't think I held any comments back, that's pretty much all I have to say about it. Besides the bit of warning about giving anyone “guru” status there are two main things I disagree with concerning the books. The first is summed up well in this statements



I think it's absurd to think that this is the only way to teach. I also think that it's absurd for someone who isn't supplying answers to “tell you the right questions to ask.” How can we be sure Ervin knows the right questions to ask if he isn't willing to supply the answers. Maybe he missed an important question that unlocks a lot of answers. Let me try to explain it this way, I have a granddaughter just learning to talk, soon she'll be discovering the world even more and learning about lots of things. Now I'm hoping she's going to ask the questions and I'm going to do my best to answer them. I imagine that I'll be saying, “I don't know, maybe someday you'll figure it out and teach me.” a lot. I don't imagine I'll be saying, “You're asking all the wrong questions, these are the questions you should be asking.” very much at all. - Get it?



I can agree to that.



Secret? I thought I was pretty open about all of this. I did give a bit of a shameless plug for AC's classes but my advice was serious and very real. If the word budget plays any role in your life then how you spend your luthiery dollars matters to you. These books are expensive and it's worth exploring the value they bring to the table and if there are less expensive alternatives to get similar information.

Likewise, the cost of living in the SF Bay area is very high, I've lived there, I know. The cost of living in other parts of the country is much much lower. So, if a budding luthier wants to spend a limited dollar budget in the most efficient way, then I'm saying you may want to consider taking a course from a luthier that lives in an area where the cost of living may allow for lower cost courses. Make sense?

The same goes with expensive books, especially since there are a lot of alternatives for someone to get “Master” education in guitar building. Here's my advice for someone wanting to own a “master guide to guitar building.” For free- some assembly required.

Step 1) Go to every forum on guitar building and do a search on “Mario Proulx”. Copy every post made by Mario in a file.

Step 2) Sort the posts into four books as follows.

Book 1) FACTS ABOUT GUITAR BUILDING

Cut and paste every Mario post that has to do with a FACT into this book. You can organize them by subject if you like. For example – hide glue facts. Wood facts. Etc. etc.

When you're done you will have compiled an amazing list of important things that anyone who is serious about guitar building should know, I imagine there might be a few mistakes too but from what I've seen Mario sets the bar in factual accuracy of the information he gives and considering the volume of information he gives, I don't think anyone else is even close.

Book 2) METHODS AND PROCEDURES FOR GUITAR BUILDING

Cut and paste every Mario post that has to do with “how to” tips on guitar building into this book. When you're done you'll have an amazing list of methods on how to do, I imagine- most everything concerned with building a guitar. And every one I think will not only work but be extremely practical
and frugal.

Book 3) OPINIONS ABOUT GUITAR BUILDING

Cut and paste every Mario opinion about how guitars should be and how they should be built. It will be a rich source of knowledge, inspiration, and ideas. Just keep in mind that they are opinions. You may form different ones.

Book 4) SNIDE REMARKS

Cut and paste every Mario snide remark that you find and put it in this book. Then use your computers trash can.

Thanks to the magic of the 21st century you can have these “master works” in any font you fancy, and for a nominal fee, you can print these books on whatever high quality paper you like. Me, I'm always spilling glue or something on my guitar books so I don't need fancy paper.

Also, if you want Ervin's tips, and you can't afford the dough, I imagine that you'll be able to read about them for free in the forums any second now. Maybe even watch them in one of Chris's videos!




I'm not sure you understand my point, Chris. I'll mostly leave it at that unless you want me to explain it further, which I'll do if you want. I'll just say, my point was serious and it's a very real thing to be aware of. It's not a diss on Ervin or Alan, it's natural thing that happens in a student – teacher relationship. Student and teachers should both be aware of it and minimize the effects.



I can only imagine what you're hinting at but in the end we have to take responsibility for how we treat others. Imagine what the guitar making community might be like if the next generation imitates the “coyness” they are learning from “team Somogyi.”



First of all, if my feelings were suppressed then I wouldn't be able to post about them- Get it?

I'll simply say, you misunderstand my point. It's not about anything Alan did wrong or my being mad at him. I was sharing a natural thing that happens between a student and a teacher in the hope that someone might, in the back of their mind take Ervin's “rules' with a grain of salt. And not just Ervin's rules, every luthier's 'rules'. Get it? Doing this may be harder then you realize.

So, I don't think I need to email Alan, but maybe I should talk about you and me for a moment, Chris. We seem to get into a pattern of posts every once in a while that maybe needs to be addressed.

It goes something like this:

Step 1) I post something you don't like or think that I should not have posted.

Step 2) You scold me.

The post I'm responding to here is a good example but there are others too. For example, the chilindi pattern thread where you were struggling to make it all work and worried about the exact speakers and amplifiers and such and Alan seemed to be unavailable at the moment so I jumped in (a bit reluctantly) to give whatever help I could. I explained how the exact speaker and amp didn't really matter- best not to use a speaker too big. Etc. etc. Still you struggled and I got this.



That's the “scolding” I was mentioning above.

Just to finish up the story, Then it turns out that:


Reminds me of the time you were learning to bend sides. You watched Todd's video and were very gung ho. (This occurred in another forum that doesn't keep all old posts, for no good reason I will add, so I couldn't verify this as I would have liked to do, correct me if I got it wrong.)

I posted that you shouldn't use too much water. Not exactly an extreme position in the guitar making world but given the good soaking Todd was demonstrating I thought a bit of another point of view would be useful.

The next think I know you're scolding me. Something about not being so negative or something or other.

Then you proceed to have problems with, what was it, 6? practice sides, you went running from forum to forum looking for help. Todd was on holiday or something as I recall. Next thing I know you declare problem solved, you shouldn't use too much water!

Anyway, that's my experience of our posting relationship, I get that you often don't understand where I'm coming from in my posts, few do, but I don't think that's a reason for you to scold me.

In spite of all this I'm not angry with you. Given the way things have turned out I try to be more amused than angry – still we should change our pattern.

John

I agree with the rest, but I couldn't disagree MORE with this statement. Maybe I'm just thick-skinned, but I've always found Mario's snide remarks to be a great source of amusement and inspiration. I think posting the snide remarks along with what they're responding to could be an excellent guide for the student who needs a...heavier hand

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Got me books two days ago!


I'm reading the last one first.

_________________
"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Sorry about that John I didn't realize I was coming off as such. The bender problem wasn't water at least in my case, it was the solid form and the heat blanket on the bottom and I think John Hall called that one.
I'll also agree with you about Mario giving out lots of info over the years.
I do believe the boom box is a misunderstanding. Even with the working tone generator my boom box doesn't work. The speaker and holding it close was good stuff. What I was asking for was specific things that worked like model #s as I was very frustrated at the time and I guess my responce did seem somewhat short. Sorry about that.
I haven't been avoiding your question about which tone generator didn't work either. I just haven't gotten back into my other old laptop to see what that program was.
I'll try and keep up the video updates.

Thanks Chris, I appreciate that a lot.

If anything in one of my posts, on any forum, bugs you, feel free to ask me to clarify what I'm saying or why I'm saying it. And, if it's more comfortable to do in private, feel free to go that route too, I won't mind at all. Of course you're always invited to correct my errors too.

Actually, that's an invitation I'll extend to everyone.

John




I can't even begin to describe how hard it was to resist the temptation to respond to this with one of Mario's classics like: "ugh". But somehow I managed- well mostly.



Reminds me of the story I read about the Japanese apprentice who forgot to bring his masters wet stones in one night and the stones froze and cracked. When he showed the master what happened he didn't say a word, the master just punched him in the face. I suppose you could call that a heavier hand too.

I'll assume that you are mostly joking and leave it at that, although if you really want to drill down and get into this a bit deeper just let me know.

John

I don't know what that whole rant was about other than mentioning Ervin's name a lot.
Ervin thinks he knows it all about how to build the ultimate guitar and he may or may not.
I would suggest going to every builders site and checking out all guitars built, email them questions, some will answer, others will not. Build, play and experiment and figure out what is wrong with your guitars. Learn about wood.
I asked Ervin a question and he stated he had written a book about the very question I asked. I did not hear from him for a couple of days then I received an email and he stated he would tell me what was in one book in a paragraph which he did. It was not anything I did not already know. Ervin is overly verbose and I told him so and he did not care for it.
He can state the same in shorter sentences. You build a guitar to the point of falling apart, the thinner the wood the better since a real thin top will surely be able to vibrate easier as with the back/sides.
Some luthiers in Cal are using classical bracing when building steel strings and the guitar are very loud.

There is a ton of information in his books and he does a good job of describing and explaining it. They are like a text book and reading them is like taking a course. I haven't found any books so far that describes this info in a book.
And yes $240 is a lot for a couple of books if you don't have the money. But these books are also top quality books as far as material, binding, paper and hard backs. The Left Brain Luthier is $55 and it's a ring binder but if it was of this quality it would be $100. In the same ball park as the Somogyi books. I haven't been working since the first of the year so the books weren't an easy purchase for me so if I didn't think they were worth the price then I would surely say so. And I think they certainly are. That's my review from someone who is reading them. I also have invested in plenty of other books and tapes/DVDs over the years also. It's an investment in education. There are others that if they wrote a book that I'd buy them too. I might not agree with everything they say and I don't think the authors really believes that the reader will. After all we can be a tuff bunch.

While he does not give hard answers, which I can understand, he does an excellent job of explaining concepts and methods to arrive at a goal, which must, in reality, be yours, anyway.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

There is nothing like this on the market at all Ervin rambles around the subject basically letting you form your own opinions around is knowledge if this makes sense and they're very informative, they are on the borderline of being too expensive but in my opinion just creep in as worth it, and come on the quality I paid similar amounts for textbooks of the same quality so it is market rate

_________________
Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes