Official Luthiers Forum!

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

I haven't had any confirmations either, but I sent a check I know they got it, as it was cashed, but don't know if they entered my email address. It would have been a manual entry, and I'm betting they only email those who emailed them, or paid via PayPal.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Just a follow up not after getting an email from Jim.

If you guys paid with a check, I don't believe that there will be an email confirmation sent out to you, as the email confirmation is done through paypal, not USPS. Most of the people that paid with a check didn't provide an email address either, so I had no way of taking care of that. If you are concerned as to whether or not your books went out, just shoot me an email and I will work to aleviate your fears or at least make things better. Chris and I talked and found out that we had, indeed, dropped the ball on his order, so at least we were able to take care of it. I promise that I am not perfect, but am at least working hard at getting better! I sent out 27 sets to people that paid with a check yesterday, and that is all that I have on our records. Hang in there, and let me know if you need anything.

Jason

I received my books 2 days ago. When I opened the box I was very impressed with the quality of the books. I have not had a chance to start reading but at a glance I am very encouraged with a few parts I have read. If the information inside the books are as useful as the book so beautiful, they will be something to cherish

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Eddie Lee

FWIW, I went to the Somogyi presentation on tuning guitars at Healdsburg. I was VERY interesting and full of wonderful theory. However, when it came time to offer specifics he was coy --unnecessarily so. For example, he brought several demonstration guitars that were in various stages of brace shaving. When the moment came to show us the braces he refused! WTF? Likewise, he said that his theory led him to develop a systematic approach to shaving braces. OK, what is that approach? He wouldn't say.

What he would say was that if you wanted specific answers to practical questions you either had to attend his $5,000 course or buy his $250 books. Cheesy!

In any case, I decided to see if in fact the answers to these questions were in his books. After all, he told the audience to buy the books for their answers. I stood there at his booth thumbing through the books a good while (while getting evil looks from Team Somogyi) trying to find the answers to two specific questions that had been asked in the seminar.

Guess what? I couldn't find any answers in the books.

The books are beautifully printed tomes with tons of gorgeous pictures. They are full of impressive theoretical discussions about what a guitar should do, how it works, and what affects the quality of sound. Many, many people will be proud to have these books on their coffee table. However, they are very short on any kind of practical advice and are careful not to reveal any of Somogyi's techniques.

I cannot believe that Mr. Somogyi is afraid that if he actually discussed his technique someone will be able to "copy" him or "steal" his customers. In any case, I decided to pass on the $250 books. Your Mileage May Vary.

PS. The specific questions that he refused to answer were:

1) He claimed that scalloped bracing created a very chaotic stiffness on the soundboard and so he didn't think they worked well. He was asked, if not scalloped, where do you shave your braces? He refused to answer.

2) He showed the crowd that he looked for the tap tone response to be even across the soundboard, but refused to answer what braces he shaved in response to the tap tones he was demonstrating.

I could not find answers to either questions in the books.

I think there is a theoretical reason behind not discussing actual bracing locations. (humor intended).

Every guitar is different in purpose, design etc. Every piece of spruce, cedar, redwood, etc.. is different.

There is no 'right' way to brace a guitar (in a specific sense).

Also, to defend his content at healdsburg, he only had 90 minutes or so to give a presentation on voicing in general. He had a specific agenda, at least as specific as Ervin can be. He also came prepared with a lot of presentation material that I thought was pretty impressive. 90 minutes is not enough time to cover 'voicing' if you intend to include any detail (his classes are much longer), and while turning those boxes over and letting us see the braces would have been interesting, and maybe fun, from 50 to 200 feet away, it would have provided no real value to obtaining a better understanding to voicing a guitar, but certainly would have been a huge distraction away from his agenda.

What probably should have happened, was to let him set up a table outside the theater somewhere where we could go look at those tops and get a feel for how they are built.

I think a lot of folks went there expecting him to give out some kind of secret sauce recipe that answered the age-old question.. where do I put my braces... how do I carve my braces, what material, how heavy/thick, and even what glue to use (I think he may have mentioned something about that).

I found the presentation interesting, and even a little entertaining. I didn't come away with any specific knowledge to take home and apply to improve my guitars. I did come away with a lot of new stuff to think about, stuff I need a better undestanding of (i.e. backs/back bracing's role in the guitars voice). All stuff that might not have occured to me until much later. Honestly, for $20 or whatever the cost was, and a 90 min presentation (not a class mind you), I was happy with what was presented.

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Jim Hansen

I have heard all of these critisisms before about Ervin and his method of teaching. The basic truth is there AREN'T any answers. What Ervin teaches is a way to think about the guitar as a system and a methodology for building a highly responsive guitar. He doesn't really ever tell you "where to put the braces, or how to carve them" -- not in any specific sense.

I think if you give his approach a fair shot I think you will get a lot out of it. I am yet to meet anyone who said it didn't provide profound new insights.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Perhaps they need a subtitle?
Guitar Zen, or Builders Meditations, or Theoretical Physics for Guitars.

Joe

I've never responded to all the discussions over the years on Ervin's teaching technique. I mean, having never been to his classes or - until now - read his books I didn't figure I had much room to conjecture about it. But with what I've gathered out of his books thus far, it is exactly the kind of material I was hoping for.

I know it is frustrating to a lot of folks, as I have seen folks have that same frustration with my own training technique which is remarkably like Ervin's. I have trained a lot of guys in power plant operations and have seen all kinds of students. Most want the easy "cookbook" answers to problems. Those guys turn into "cookbook" operators. I've often said you can train a monkey to punch buttons in a certain order. Just program a drawer to shoot out a banana in response to the right sequence. But these guys get completely lost when something happens out of the ordinary - they have no idea how to respond. They freeze up when "non-textbook" things happen and the plant crashes and burns around them. Not pretty.

Rather, I usually refuse to give cut-and-dried answers to most operational issues. Rather, I train guys to understand the basics - the underlying concepts that make things work, then when operational incidents happen to learn to take inventory of what's going on and respond to what they see, rather than going "by the book" just because "the book says so". When they ask a question during a plant startup, most of the time I respond with another question. Granted, they don't like it much at the time, and it frustrates them. But I want them to work out what's going on and learn to respond to it. I have often said that operating a power is plant is not so much about having the right answers as it is having the right questions. As a result, I can proudly say that the guys who I have trained have become the best operators - head and shoulders above the "cookbook" guys. And, as a result, these same guys have often thanked me when it was said and done for training them this way.

Now, can the "cookbook" guys operate a power plant? Well, yeah. Can they hire out and make a very good salary? Yep. And they'll blend right in with the "average" operator. But they will never excel beyond that point. The same thing, in my opinion, applies to luthierie. If you want a cookbook, go ahead and buy one. There's plenty of instructional material out there that will give you a step-by-step method of how the author constructs a guitar. And you'll learn to build a copy of the author's guitars. But, don't knock Ervin's technique, it really is a path to excellence. Don't like it? No problem. Don't buy his books or take his classes. But - hope this doesn't offend but I've found it to be absolutely true - if you want a "cookbook" method you will just become a cookbook builder and will never excel beyond, or even to level of, many of your contemporaries.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I missed this in my first pass through this post.

I was there, and I don't recall that he refused to answer anything. I do recall him intentionally not being specific (or being coy if you prefer) about some things that were asked, and as far as I'm concerned, I was fine with what he said.

To give another example of this. I was in Rick Davis' shop this weekend talking to him about a project I'm about to start on. I asked him a specific question about the location (or need for) a specific brace on this particular guitar (I'm being intentionally vague so as not to start new arguments). When I asked 'is this brace necessary?', his answer was similar to what Ervin might have said (Rick will probably kill me for this!). He said "I'm really not sure", or something to that effect. Then he went on to say what general function the brace served and talked about some of the pro's and con's. Cat Fox even contributed some comments about possible structural repair issues. Neither one of them told me 'you must (or must not) include this brace on this guitar'. They just gave me some information I could take home and digest, and make my own decisions with. As a student of guitar building, I appreciate this approach. It's much better to send me away with stuff to think about, rather than just giving me the answers to the test.

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Jim Hansen

I'm with you guys on learning the theory as to cook book text. It's like me being an electrician, if I don't know the theory and understand the mechanic of something then I can't trouble shoot it. At least I can take an educated guess of what might be wrong and approach it and if that's not it then, " Hmmm, let's see...". At least I can hopefully reason it out.
That's a lot of what I hoping to get from the book. I'm not too bad as getting information and running with to come up with my ideas. Even if they don't all work.
Can't wait for it to get here, hopefully tomorrow.

I took Ervin's class a few years ago, attended the seminar at Healdsburg, and have read the voicing book cover to cover (half way done with the building book).

My only issue with his coyness/secrecy/indirectness (whatever you prefer to call it) is that I was surprised by it. He clearly has every right to share info or keep any secrets that he wants to but I was taken aback by having paid $3500 only to find out during the class that he was withholding information. Again, he has every right to do that but I would have preferred to know that ahead of time.

Brock said,

"I have heard all of these critisisms before about Ervin and his method of teaching. The basic truth is there AREN'T any answers."

I disagree with that. I think it would have been very helpful and informative for him to say "this is how I brace and voice my tops and this is why." He could have said that in a context of "It's just one way and it may or may not be what you are looking for and I encourage you to find your own way and I've given you some great tools to do that." I think the methodology he teaches would have made more sense and been more useful in the context of his guitars. If people take that as spoon-feeding and fail to grasp the underlying methods (and try to further them in their own way), that's their loss.

I would add that I've enjoyed the process of experimentation on my own since then and I'm curious if this is one of his reasons for less than full disclosure. He says in his book that he approaches building as an artist, not as a business. One way to read that is that the process of self-expression is as important as the product.

I would also say that, in spite of any frustration, the $3500 I paid for the class was the best investment I've made in my career. I did come out of there with a flexible methodology and my guitars are better for it. As an investment, the books look to be a close second. Whether you agree with his style or not, I don't see how you can be serious about building and not own the books.

Lastly, I appreciate anyone who's willing to put their stuff out there and be subjected to this kind of dissection!

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

My books in the mail....! Here hopefully before the weekend.

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Ervins "real" answer may not really satisfy you.... you are expecting the sage wisdom from the Old Man on the Mountain about the nature of "Justice" and "The Universe" ... and instead you get "Well, I first just shave off a little somewhere and see what happens... If it is good, I shave a little more off.... If not, I shave somewhere else!"

An answer like this is probably in there somewhere... but you gloss over it so quickly because it doesn't seem like knowledge....

and on bracing schemes... By his own admission, Ervin experiments with bracing schemes on every build... so Copying this particular scheme may not be a good idea.... because it may not be one of his successful experiments!

Think of Al's voicing videos... His explanation about how he does it is pretty simple... This End is Tone... This end is Strength.... Shave off a little somewhere down towards the "Tone" end. Check the patterns and see what happens... Repeat as Required!

Or even Torres... who many constantly asked for the Secret of his Methods.... and he finally says "This fellow here has helped me build many guitars... He has observed my "Secret" on numerous occasions... But.. there is no such secret.... The information is captured by these fingertips and communicated to my brain"

And You walk away saying "That's It?"

Thanks

John

Perhaps, but Al puts it all out there for you to learn from; what he does, how he does it, why he does it. I didn't see any attempt to hide anything. But your point is well taken; it's not something that one can follow step by step, doing exactly the same thing and getting exactly the same result. At lease I haven't encountered anything in the build process that works like that for me.

To be fair, I don't think people are looking for sage wisdom from the Old Man on the Mountain about the nature of "Justice" and "The Universe" We are just building guitars here, right?

There is a big rhetorical gap between what I am talking about and what other seem to be looking for (or insisting can't be had) from the Somogyi books. I don't need salvation from some guy who builds guitars in Oakland. Nor do I want a step-by-step for how to build the mythical "perfect" guitar. However, it would be nice if Mr. Somogyi had included some specific examples of how he puts his theory to work.

That's it! All I am looking for is some specifics to illustrate the theory. Illustrating theory with specific examples is just good pedagogy. I have built a half dozen guitars and none of them were from kits or followed Cumpiano's measurements exactly. However, without measurements Cumpiano's book would have been too abstract to be of use.

Somogyi hinted that the specific examples of his theory were in his books. I could not find them, and that surprised me a lot. Because the books are quite expensive, I thought it would be useful to share that observation. For me, that made the books not worth the price. Obviously for some these books have a deeper meaning and purpose. I don't mean to discourage anyone looking for that in the books if they want.

Its like Cumpiano said," everyone wants to be something, no one wants to become something" I took a " chance" and ordered Ervins books,I say "chance" because all of the publications and classes I have taken thus far have seriously come short of giving any specific knowledge, and the price was to be considered in these times as well.
another reason I considered it a as taking a "chance" is at this point I do not readily agree with the " thinnest is best " school of thought . Maybe some will think I am a bit inexperienced to make such a judgement . but what I do know is there are at least three world class builders using tops around .110" and around .125" (Ervin says in his books his tops are around (090 ) , therefor I am beginning to believe there must be other important factors in voicing other than specific top plate thickenesses.
Did I expect the books to give me all the information needed to build guitars that behave like Ervins? NOPE! what I was hoping for was some tidbits of knowledge , that, when combined with the information I have gleaned here, and in the various publications and websites available ,over the last three years or so, that would bring me closer to understanding and manifesting this great mystery we as builders call voicing.
Did the books fall short of giving a magical formula? I think they did! did the books increase my understanding of how a guitar works and how the sound may be improved upon and manipulated? yes I think it did ! some in ways I have read elsewhere , some in ways paraphrased with a different slant on Ervins "mystical" concepts , and some ideas I have not come across , up till now in Ervins books!
one small example of how one small piece of information could be a huge thing is in Ervins chapters on French Polishing .I have heard many people saying that french polishing is too soft of a finish for guitar , David LaPlante , even did a very reasonable "alternative" to french polishing seminar at the ASIA Gathering , that does not use oil in an attempt to combat this issue. What ervin says is " some oils dry and some do not", for at least part of the process you might have better luck with a french polish using an oil that dries! A small tidbit of information with huge possible ramifications!
Bottom line , am I happy I bought ervins books ? yes I am ! do I think my next guitar will be like one of Ervins ? NOPE ! will my next guitar be a better piece of work than my last ? yes .. or it should be . do I think Evrins books will have had some influence on that ? yes I do. Jody

I was at Ervin's shop couple month ago when he hosted the North California luthier meeting. One part of the meeting was when Ervin gave us small card to write how much he should charge for this book. He stressed how "this book will tell ALL", "this book will give all that he knows and learned in his career" and asked us to price what we thought would be fair.

Reading some of your post makes me believe he didn't "tell ALL".

What dissapoints me the most are the fact that the book was completed at the time of this survey...he knew the content that was going to be published. Either Ervin and I have different definition of "all" or ...

Over the years quite a few beginning mandolin builders have asked me about my graduations, tone bars, etc. I always tell 'em for $500,000. I will tell them exactly how I make mandolins.
Some things are proprietary. Some folks want everything handed to them on a plate.
No, these books don't tell all. You are invited to bring your brain along when reading them.
If what is in them is not enough for you, don't buy them.

Or if you got them and you don't like them then sale them. Nothing wrong with that. I've bought DVDs or Tapes and watched them and if I think I can get along without them for reference then I sale them. At least you won't fill like it's a total lost and someone else might feel they got a good deal on them.

Sure he did. He just didn't give specific answers. As I say, if you give this methodology a chance I think you will really find that it is much better than single answers to specific questions.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

OK, now I'm getting worried that they've forgotten me completely. I sent a PM to Jason, but got no reply. I have no email from them with shipping information in it either.

Jason - are you still reading this thread? Hope so. Did you guys ship my books yet? I paid by check way back when (pre-order period).

Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

Just to clarify, and I'm not being antagonistic, the book doesn't get into application at all? After all the theory, no, "For example, if ____ was the desired result, we could get there a number of ways. First we could approach it like this . . . " It doesn't discuss the pieces that need to come together to get the desired results?

Dave try his email instead of a PM
jasontkostal@hotmail.com

Question for Jason, should he pop back into the thread:

These books are the kind of thing that, once it's out of print, are going to command extremely high prices - probably more than I'd be ever be able to justify paying. $265 I can handle, just not now.

If the books sell slowly enough, I imagine there might be many of the first printing still on hand many years from now. Or maybe they'll sell quickly and steadily enough that a second printing would make good financial sense. Or, maybe they'll sell steadily but too slowly to justify a second printing and there won't be any available by the time I scrape enough money together, get off my butt, and order a set.

Even though I haven't even started on acoustic guitar #1 yet, I think I will need these books. I realize it's early, too soon to really know, and certainly too soon to make a decision on a second printing (or not,) but -- best guess, does it kinda look like these will still be available for sale 12-18 months from now?

Thanks...