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PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:06 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 168
First name: Matthew
Last Name: Rust
City: Columbus
State: IN
Zip/Postal Code: 47201
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I know that for the sake of being polite, it may not be the best idea to ask a builder "what's wrong with the binding in this spot" or "wow, you really skimped on the nut shaping" considering the time taken to build even the most simple guitar. Not that I have much room to talk, being so new to the building thing but I have restored a lot of vintage instruments and am an absolute perfectionist.

The reason that I ask is that I visited a guitar store in Saint Louis that specializes in acoustic instruments and was able to play a truck load of Martins, Huss & Dalton, Collings, Froggy Bottom, and Gibson guitars. All very nice. They also had a small assortment of guitars by local builders. I won't give any names, but these guitars were mostly in the $1000 to $2000 range (one was actually $5000 and another $15,000!!!). Out of a half dozen guitars, I did not see one that was even close to the fit and finish of a low end Martin. We're talking uneven binding, sloppy headstock inlay, very sloppy fret work, and globs of glue on the inside of the box.

I left that shop with a big head, but wonder (honestly) how many builders out there get away with sloppy work like that and make a living building these things. For the most part, the work I see from the builders on this forum is immaculate. What do you guys think?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:06 am 
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Walnut
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Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:04 pm
Posts: 28
First name: Steven
Last Name: Metz
City: Nahunta
State: GA
Zip/Postal Code: 31553
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
The 50's dads workshop vibe is what my guitars are about. They are not perfect on purpose. They do sound amazing from what my customers tell me. If you want perfect buy a Martin or Taylor. If you want something funky that sounds great and is a personal statement buy one of my guitars.

We are not making Velveeta cheese or Pringles leave that to those that do it best


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:15 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:41 pm
Posts: 708
Location: Bothell, WA USA
First name: Jim
Last Name: Hansen
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Great, now I'm hungry...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:41 am 
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Cocobolo
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Posts: 168
First name: Matthew
Last Name: Rust
City: Columbus
State: IN
Zip/Postal Code: 47201
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
They sounded like guitars. Nothing special at all.

"They are not perfect on purpose". Is this just a cop-out or are you telling me that you intentionally do sloppy work so that poeple can tell it is hand made? Sorry to be so blunt, but I really am curious.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:45 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
Matt,
Of coarse any builder who is serious about the craft and about offering the very best product that he
is able to produce would never do sloppy work on purpose. It is more a product of a lack of experience
and a lack of awareness of the quality of work being done and offered by other builders of good repute.
There is no excuse for any gobs of glue inside a guitar from a skilled luthier. We do use glue to assemble
our guitars so there may be some visible evidence of glue present, but never drips or globs of it running
down the inside of the sides or left after being squeezed out from around braces and things of that sort.

Martin uses glue to and every one I've ever seen.....and I used to work there.....has some small indication
of things being glued together. A tiny drop of dry glue or small squeezeout residue between the segments
of the kerfing inside the back and top. These aren't things that most people would even notice or get upset
about and reject a guitar for. I've heard that foolishness about work being sloppy on purpose too, and never
thought it was true or acceptable in any way. If a builder sees something that isn't right or isn't completed
to the highest standard and best quality possible for him, the work should be taken apart and redone until
it is. Every good builder that I know has done this very thing as they've cut things back apart or removed
bindings and things to do them again to get them right before the guitar went to a player. It's worth the
time and effort and is a learning experience every time.

Most small builders have incorporated into their building practice the regular checking and removal of
any glue evidence. With each step of assembly, we will examine the joints and carefully use an arsenal
of specialty tools to scrape, chisel and wipe any glue drips, squeeze out and smears from every surface
surrounding them so that, when a player or potential buyer looks inside, they see a clean, presentable
assembly of nicely made parts of the finest materials possible.

Any custom guitar that falls into the $1000 to $2000 range is going to be more likely from a new or
beginning luthier who hasn't had the time to hone their building skills....including their awareness of the
importance of keeping things neat and clean as they work their way through each build.

Sorry to hear that you had the experience that you did at that particular shop. You should get to another
store that might carry guitars from more well know builders who have more guitars and experience under their
belts. There's nothing wrong with offering some questions to a builder about things that you might spot on
their guitars that fall short of what you consider reasonable quality on a custom guitar. Someon woking by hand
is going to achieve great results as they develop their skills in the various areas of lutherie, which are really
unique to the trade as far as the woodworking requirements go.

It's also important that builders get exposed to the guitars being built by their peers and especially by the
builders who are consider to be the very best in the business. This gives them a real world palette of comparison
as they build their own guitars. Even though the newer builders may not be able to achieve the quality of the
builders they respect most for years, they will have a clear goal in mind as to what is possible and what they
should be shooting for.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:26 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4915
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I have to say that Todd's post is pretty much my experience. I start my lowest end guitars at $2500 and they go to $20,000. When I look at boutique guitars the first think I look at is the fit and finish. I do understand that hand built guitars will show somewhere a small flaw. Mostly something in the binding and usually the top and the back side binding height won't match. Neck joinery is often fudged a bit.
We all learn how to fix the mistakes and we will make one now and then. If you are going to make a guitar to sell and you want to be successful you need to master the eye appeal department in fit and finish. Having seen Brock's Lances and many OLF'ers at various ASIA outings , they do fit the bill as making a nice guitar. I have seen some guitar builders that master the fit and finish but the instruments were lackluster at best in the sound department and others that sound great but lack the finish.
I have seen some guitars that looked to be from greenies that came from well named luthiers. It may be that they were rushed and picked up more orders . It is a thin line between production and quality. It becomes a matter of pride to what you as a builder will expect from yourself and only the builder can produce that product. Market will let the builder know in a hurry if it will be acceptable. Todd makes a nice instrument and he also shares his skills very well .
If you want to get into this business as a professional , you will learn in a hurry what you can and cannot get away with. Make your processes repeatable and your product end result will become reproducible . Never compromise to your own belief . The best advice I can give anyone is to be open minded about your work . Allow true criticism to inspire you to better instruments. Accept advice from people and know that if the perfect guitar was ever built we would want it to me ours.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:30 am 
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Cocobolo
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Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 7:19 am
Posts: 168
First name: Matthew
Last Name: Rust
City: Columbus
State: IN
Zip/Postal Code: 47201
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I guess that is what I was looking for... In my perfect little world of reading Cumpiano and Kinkade and Henderson, I was just blown away at what I saw hanging on that wall. So this isn't an isolated incident? People are really trying to get away with this kind of stuff?

I know what I am going for tonally and cosmetically, so I guess I shouldn't worry about the other guys. I also have a great job that I love and this building thing is just a hobby. But I sure wouldn't mind building some great instruments and making enough $$ to fund some more wood, tools, etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:35 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:53 pm
Posts: 2198
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Is this a "perfect" neck body join or a "sloppy fit"?

Image

Rick Turner would say it's perfect and I'd be inclined to agree with him. "Perfection" needs a frame of reference against which you can judge - is a shiny guitar that you can see your reflection in "perfect" or a relatively modern quirky aberration? If you are a "perfectionist" in the literal sense then it's probably as much a curse as a blessing as you'd never ever, ever, EVER finish an instrument - there are always degrees of compromise, it just depens where in the sliding scale you fit. Are the pre-war Martin and Gibson "Holy Grail" guitars "perfect" - I've never seen any but have heard tales about their rough carved braces and glue blobs.

Some people make guitars, other people buy them - or not. That's the way it goes at the end of the day.

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De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:51 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:34 am
Posts: 3081
I doubt you would see an immaculate instrument going for $1-2000. At that price it isn't even worth building for a hand maker.
Every builder has his/her own conception of what is acceptable for a price. Picking out every flaw in an instrument is not what it's about. A small builder cannot compete with the companies you mention...they are heavily CNC'd and essentially make a perfect kit that is assembled by "factory workers". Granted, these folks are highly skilled at what they do, but I doubt you would find the neck fretter doing the finishing.
These companies are set up to build mass quantities of instruments at a reasonably cheap price and as such are tooled up to the hilt. Every aspect of the process is set up to facilitate quick production and a high standard of flawlessness. Collings is a perfect example. Everything that can be is CNC'd. Nothing wrong with that, but it does give a kind of sterile look to the instruments.
Compare those instruments to an old Larson, Gibson, Martin. You will find glue, machine marks, rough sanding.
I guess it depends on what the customer is looking for. If you want shiny, go for a factory made instrument.
Frankly I'd rather have a hand cut inlay than CNC'd any day, a thin varnish finish that may show a few flaws than a heavily applied lacquer that looks like a piece of glass, a little sign of glue line inside.
I'm not making excuses for sloppiness, I just prefer an instrument that has a little character, something missing in a lot of instruments made these days.
I'm afraid that factories have elevated the standards up to a point of near perfection, and that is not "handmade".


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:50 am 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:45 am
Posts: 16
First name: Brent
Last Name: Hutto
City: Columbia
State: SC
Zip/Postal Code: 29209
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
My perspective is that of a buyer, not of a builder. I am not in the least concerned about slight cosmetic flaws or for that matter wear-and-tear "dings" in a guitar that sounds good and plays good. That said, once I spent a couple days seeing and playing a guitar by a builder that we all know who I won't name (but it starts with "Lance" and ends with "brink" [:Y:]) I lost all sympathy for any lack of care in the fit and finish of a hand-built guitar.

It was an instrument that sounded really good, played like a dream and also just happened to be nigh perfectly assembled and finished. I think the phrase "jewel like" came to mind. Now as fine a fellow as that "unnamed" builder might be, he's no magician. Any standard of quality he can produce ought to be something another builder can achieve. Surely it's just a matter of practicing, putting in the effort and most importantly caring enough to get things right. If he were selling guitars for a thousand bucks, maybe that would not be practical but I think "jewel like" assembly ought to come standard when someone waits months to have a guitar built that cost several thousand dollars.

My point being, if a guitar sounds and plays right I'm not going to kick it out of bed (so to speak) for a glue drip, gap in the purfling or the odd bump under the finish. But I still think "perfect" ought to be part of the package, even if I'm willing to settle for less on occasion.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:27 pm
Posts: 2109
Location: South Carolina
First name: John
Last Name: Cox
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Yep... The $1k-$2 is down towards the bottom of the hand made market... and likely you won't find many true "Full On Professional Handbuilts" in that price range unless they just had to sell one to eat. These are almost exclusively made by "Hobby" building amateurs.... (Like most of us here on the board.)

As such, I would expect to have to carefully evaluate one of these before you decide on it... Certainly, there are gems out there... one that plays and sounds like a dream made by an unknown builder.. and maybe the finish is a little rough, but servicable... but there are far more Pigs with optimistic prices on them!

If they played like Angels singing... and Fit/finish/workmanship was perfect... they would either have already been sold at the low price... or would have been priced up much higher...

Something very instructive.... Go talk with an experienced Pro guitar repairman... Get their opinion of "Hobby" guitar builders. Kevin, John, and Todd are all being *Extremely* polite when talking about folks like us.... Why?... Well.. Statistically speaking, you are more likely to get a decent playing instrument out of Esteban than out of most of us Amateurs!

I have run into a couple "Kit guitar projects" in local pawn shops... and in 100% of the cases they were:
Terrible sounding -- Boxy and dead!
Hard to play
Intonation badly out of whack... like bridge glued in the wrong place
Frequently had structural problems like bridges pulling up, loose braces, and bad glue joints in critical locations...
Frequently had bad neck sets
Fretwork very poor
Fret slots even cut in the wrong places (Wouldn't play in tune)

The worst part to me was that to a one... Every one was made out of *Beautiful* high grade wood and had a spectacular finish on them...

So.. Where did these folks spend their time and effort? ALL in Wood and fit and finish.. and NONE in what makes a GUITAR a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT!

I honestly wish they would have spent more time and money getting the playability and the structure approximately light enough and not worried about beautiful wood and super bling perfect finish! Go retop and do setups on a couple cheap beaters to understand the basics of fretwork, setups, and neck sets... Then move on to cheap wood builds... Focus on Playability and Tone... and all the rest will eventually work itself out.

At least, they would have gotten good fretwork and proper intonation... It would be playable -- though a little boxy and plain looking.. and would have made a fine student instrument.

Good luck

John


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:26 am 
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First name: George
City: Seattle
State: WA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Fine craftsmanship is no guarantee of exceptional tone, but in an age when one can have both, I wouldn't settle for anything less.

I own one solo-luthier, handmade guitar. Not only does it feature wonderful tone (IMO) and exceptional playability, but it is perfectly executed. I have gone over the guitar in minute detail, carefully studying the joinery inside and out and I can not find a single flaw. Personally, I draw inspiration from this level of craftsmanship. When I am building I frequently look to this guitar as a guide to what I should be aiming to achieve. When the day arrives that I can build as fine a guitar, take it apart, execute any type of repair and put it back together seamlessly, I will consider selling one of my instruments. Until then I'll be giving them away. Which is a beautiful thing in its own right.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:41 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:41 pm
Posts: 708
Location: Bothell, WA USA
First name: Jim
Last Name: Hansen
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I would be curious about the $1000-$2000 guitars. Are they built from factory seconds? Or serviced kit parts? What kind of finish did they have?

It's hard to believe, as someone noted above, that you could break even selling a completely built-from-scratch hand made guitar for $1000. Either they are not paying themselves, or they have taught their kids or pets to do the menial labor, or maybe they are just really efficient. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:28 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
I think that you would find that many of the builders of guitars that are selling for those low
prices buy most of their parts from one of the many guitar part vendors. Martin sells kits and
parts at the Guitarmaker's Connection outlet, Stewart MacDonald and others also offer well
made CNC cut parts and kits.

I know of many builders who have the necks made by someone, the blocks for the neck joint
and butt and of the guitar made for them, their kerfed linings cut by others and even have their
sides bent by another shop. Sure, the final product of the guitar is the result of their work in
assembling and finishing it, but their work is a far cry from those of us who take the raw wood,
cut the pieces for the back and sides, make all of the parts without the use of CNC machines and
a myriad of jigs and fixtures, bend and shape everything in house and then do all of the assembly
and finish and set up work.

There are also more and more builders who build a wonderful instrument and then ship it out
to hav it finished by a finish specialist. This has become more popular in recent years as the number
of small and solo builder shops has increased so much. It takes nothing away from their building
ability and the quality of their work, but is just an effort to save the expense of investing in the
right finish gear and a spray booth and to save the time needed to execute a great finish in their
own shops.

At factories like Martin's, the employees are specialists on a production line. They do one thing
very well and have developed that skill by repeating that one operation thousands of times each week
as the plant puts out 500 to 700 guitars a day. While I worked there back in the early 90s, only four
....yes four....of the more than 500 employees were able to and had actually built a guitar from start
to finish.

When you're comparing the work done by CNC machines and programs that cost the companies
hundreds of thousands of dollars and the work done by a single pair of hands in a small shop, it
really becomes a case of apples and oranges. If you were able to get a close look at the Martins
built 75 and 100 years ago, those who criticize the small flaws in today's handbuilt guitars and
stand to defend the perfection of the production guitars would be amazed at how many of the
same flaws would be present in the predecessors of today's machine built production guitars.

That was the time when little was done using machines and most of the work was still being
performed by hand by employees who were trained in the craft of lutherie rather than taught a
single operation or step in an assembly line approach to creating guitars. It's different time and
the huge demand for production guitars has made it necessary for all of the automation that the
large companies have done so well implementing while still maintaining great quality and value
for their guitars.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:07 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:05 pm
Posts: 3350
Location: Bakersville, NC
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
mrpbody442 wrote:
... They are not perfect on purpose. They do sound amazing from what my customers tell me....


I hate to be a pain here but that is one of the lamest things I have read here.

Sure, no one is perfect and we all make mistakes at times...but...on purpose?? Come on.

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Cornerstone Guitars
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:27 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 am
Posts: 4915
Location: Central PA
First name: john
Last Name: hall
City: Hegins
State: pa
Zip/Postal Code: 17938
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I do make my own parts . I do contract my necks to a guy with CNC as I can't justify one yet. Wood being wood and more figured wood may not bend perfectly , so we have that. On my lower end builds, ( $2500 ) it is a simple african hog sitka top . Nothing fancy but still will have my attention to the best I can execute.
If you can't make a buck doing it , then don't do it. Business is business and if you are not making money you won't stay in business long. Overhead , Insurance , Taxes , Labor . Resawing my own stock affords me control of cost. I am lucky that I can't wait to get to the shop in the morning . I love being a full time luthier. It only took me 10 years.

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blues creek guitars
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:33 am 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:13 am
Posts: 1168
Location: United States
State: Texas
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
If a guitar buyer thinks he is getting a $6000 guitar for $2000 he will surely be disappointed.
If a builder tries to sell his $2000 guitar for $6000, he is due a rude awakening.
If someone with $2000 to spend shops carefully, in the hand built market, he is likely to be very satisfied.

The market will sort all of this out quite efficiently.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:58 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
Peter,
I thought the same thing when I'd read that statement that you quoted. I've actually heard a few guys
who tout themselves as building some of the best sounding guitars in the world say similar things.

They say that those little details like a nice clean neck joint, seamless miters in purfling lines and
clean work inside the guitar just aren't important and that it's the tone that matters. I do feel that the
tone of a guitar is the most sought after and desired aspect of its offering, but those nicely executed
details that take a lot of skill and that nice clean work that's visible through the soundhole sure do
serve a great purpose as they attract the player to the guitar initially. They're also a clear testimony
of the care and attention that the builder is giving the things that really don't matter and in areas that
are largely hidden to the casual viewer.

I really think that it's a lack of commitment and a lack of discipline on the part of those builders as
they fail to put the time and effort in to really enhance their technical woodworking skills that are
so necessary to achieve the clean work and seamless joints that the discerning customer base for the
custom handbuilt guitar market has come to expect as simply standard on a high end instrument.

Lame is right in my opinion. That same guitar builder would flip if he were shopping for an item
that was going to cost him a few grand and it was sloppy and poorly assembled, but worked. Can
you imagne if an auto maker said, "Yeah, they'e built like garbage on purpose, but my customers
tell me they sure do go fast." Not acceptable in any industry or for any product.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:18 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Bakersville, NC
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Kevin,
I just came from my first time at the Healdsburg guitar festival. Got to meet a lot of people I only know online as well as some customers and prospects. I had a chance on the last day to venture out and look at some guitars and there were some breath taking instruments there.
There were also some in my opinion that had no business showing their guitars at a show of this caliber.
Sure the learning curve is longer for some than others and some of the stuff I saw blew my mind... (in a negative sense). I have made my share of mistakes and unfortunately I will continue to make them(hopefully less and less). I had a guitar recently that everything just went perfect on... not the smallest oops, but sure enough I put the wrong bindings on it! You said Brazilian?? man, where did this Koa come from? gaah
It can be pretty cruel at times.... but never on purpose.

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Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Koa
Koa
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Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:56 am
Posts: 1825
Location: Grover NC
First name: Woodrow
Last Name: Brackett
City: Grover
State: NC
Zip/Postal Code: 28073
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Quote:
Can
you imagne if an auto maker said, "Yeah, they'e built like garbage on purpose, but my customers
tell me they sure do go fast." Not acceptable in any industry or for any product.


[:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:] Kevin, I'm a technician at a new car dealership. They don't really go very fast :lol: :lol: :lol:

One mans good is another mans junk. You won't see drops of glue inside my guitars or running down the sides, but you'll see glue. I believe using bottle glue could help this some, but I've never used any. I strive for workmanship equal to a modern Gibson, or 50's Martin. I don't think I need to make excuses for anything. My first few were dogs but sounded good. Ironically when I finially built one that I was completely satisfied with the looks it sounded like crap. I ended up burning it up in a bon fire. There's a steep learning curve for tone. There's also "tricks" to be learned about fit and finish, but IMHO the fit and finish are mainly just patience.
If I could build a guitar as nice as I've heard Peters are it would take me 1000 hours.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:23 pm
Posts: 416
First name: Christian
Last Name: Schmid
City: Edmonton
State: AB
Zip/Postal Code: T6E 1P9
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
peterm wrote:
mrpbody442 wrote:
... They are not perfect on purpose. They do sound amazing from what my customers tell me....


I hate to be a pain here but that is one of the lamest things I have read here.

Sure, no one is perfect and we all make mistakes at times...but...on purpose?? Come on.


I understand the statement to some degree. It was the same for me on my first two guitars (which I built for me). Some things were not perfect, and I deliberately continued building with that imperfection because I wanted to hold the guitar in my hands.

That has changed on my third guitar dramatically. While for example I would have accepted a broken reverse kerfing line on No. 1 and 2., there's no way I will let this happen on No.3
It just gets boring to accept mediocrity. Pushing my skills forward to achieve better and better results is part of the "big picture" enjoyment for me - even if taking a rim apart to touch up the bent sides and reinstall the kerfing (I'm doing that right now) is somewhat heartbreaking.

Christian


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Posts: 3933
Location: United States
Whenever one of these threads comes up, I think about one a year or so ago (iirc) on another list. The poster had bought a handmade guitar and, after observing that the strings weren't precisely centered over the inlays on the fretboard, measured the bridge location. He found it to be 1/16" closer to one side of the guitar than the other (1/32" off center). His question was; is this acceptible?

Dimensional 'perfection' is the normal condition of mass produced items: if you can't make the thing exactly the same every time you're going to spend 'way too much time fussing with them, and man-hours are the most expensive input. I remember Bob Taylor telling about throwing away a batch of necks one time. They'd put on an extra coat of finish, and the necks would no longer fit the CNC cut pockets. It was cheaper to make new ones.

But, of course, some dimensions mean more than others. If, for whatever reason, your bridge ends up 1/8" off center on the top, but the guitar plays well and in tune, that's not nearly the issue that a bridge 1/8" off in the length dimension would be. And, BTW, I've seen that latter case on mass produced guitars from an American maker. IMO, part of the issue around the notion of 'precision' is that buyers often don't know what's important and what isn't: they've absorbed the production notion that _anything_ that's off is a problem when it may not be.

If you apply the mass production standard, then most of the work produced by Stradivari is 'sloppy'. He made the cut, and went on to the next one. If this corner didn't match the others exactly he didn't worry about it so long as it looked 'right'. One of the outcomes of this is that his instruments have an artistic 'flow' that is totally lacking on modern machine made copies.

Now this is not to say there is no such thing as 'sloppy': obviously there is. Noticable corners and flat spots in the sides, for example, are things that should have been worked out, or, better yet, not allowed to happen in the first place. Stuff like that is difficult to avoid when you're beginning, and don't know how to work with the wood, but it should become less of an issue over time and with practice.

To me, the level of mastery that someone like Strad had is something that should be developed by a builder over time. As I have said before; apprentices make mistakes and don't know it, journeymen make mistakes and hide them, masters make mistakes that are part of their style. Note that the masters still do make mistakes. Some of us take longer to improve than others, either because we're klutzes, or else because we just don't see the problems as problems. Back when those 'classic' Martins were made, a little bit of glue squeeze-out, or a few saw marks inside, were not seen as 'problems'. These days, they are. Times, and standards, change.

Are today's high standards a good thing? That depends, I think. If flawless precision has become an end in itself I'm not at all sure that's good. In that case we should all just tool up with CNC machinery, farm out the finish to somebody who can really make it shine, and forget about tone, or the finer art of making a beautiful instrument that makes the most of _this_ set of wood.

But if flawless precision is something we hold up as an ideal, like, say, 'justice', realizing that it is probably unattainable in the real world, that's diifferent. Then it becomes something we can work toward as part of a greater whole, in proper subordination to the things that really do count, like beauty, playability, tone, and longevity.

One of the best things about this sort of proper understanding of the place of precision work is that it allows us to accept well meaning criticism as helpful. We all have egos, of course, and it's not fun when somebody tells you your 'baby' is ugly. But ego often hides these little flaws from the maker, and it can take an outsider to make the point that, after all, maybe you haven't quite mastered the art of cutting binding ledges. That sort of critique is especially helpful, of course, when it's phrased as, say: "You know, ever since I started using one of those binding cutting jigs I've had a lot less trouble getting the bindings to look right". Most luthiers I know, at whatever level, are interested in learning, and a criticism in the form of a general offer to teach is often well received.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:07 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:05 pm
Posts: 3350
Location: Bakersville, NC
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Alan Carruth wrote:
Whenever one of these threads comes up, I think about one a year or so ago (iirc) on another list. The poster had bought a handmade guitar and, after observing that the strings weren't precisely centered over the inlays on the fretboard, measured the bridge location. He found it to be 1/16" closer to one side of the guitar than the other (1/32" off center). His question was; is this acceptible?

Dimensional 'perfection' is the normal condition of mass produced items: if you can't make the thing exactly the same every time you're going to spend 'way too much time fussing with them, and man-hours are the most expensive input. I remember Bob Taylor telling about throwing away a batch of necks one time. They'd put on an extra coat of finish, and the necks would no longer fit the CNC cut pockets. It was cheaper to make new ones.

But, of course, some dimensions mean more than others. If, for whatever reason, your bridge ends up 1/8" off center on the top, but the guitar plays well and in tune, that's not nearly the issue that a bridge 1/8" off in the length dimension would be. And, BTW, I've seen that latter case on mass produced guitars from an American maker. IMO, part of the issue around the notion of 'precision' is that buyers often don't know what's important and what isn't: they've absorbed the production notion that _anything_ that's off is a problem when it may not be.

If you apply the mass production standard, then most of the work produced by Stradivari is 'sloppy'. He made the cut, and went on to the next one. If this corner didn't match the others exactly he didn't worry about it so long as it looked 'right'. One of the outcomes of this is that his instruments have an artistic 'flow' that is totally lacking on modern machine made copies.

Now this is not to say there is no such thing as 'sloppy': obviously there is. Noticable corners and flat spots in the sides, for example, are things that should have been worked out, or, better yet, not allowed to happen in the first place. Stuff like that is difficult to avoid when you're beginning, and don't know how to work with the wood, but it should become less of an issue over time and with practice.

To me, the level of mastery that someone like Strad had is something that should be developed by a builder over time. As I have said before; apprentices make mistakes and don't know it, journeymen make mistakes and hide them, masters make mistakes that are part of their style. Note that the masters still do make mistakes. Some of us take longer to improve than others, either because we're klutzes, or else because we just don't see the problems as problems. Back when those 'classic' Martins were made, a little bit of glue squeeze-out, or a few saw marks inside, were not seen as 'problems'. These days, they are. Times, and standards, change.

Are today's high standards a good thing? That depends, I think. If flawless precision has become an end in itself I'm not at all sure that's good. In that case we should all just tool up with CNC machinery, farm out the finish to somebody who can really make it shine, and forget about tone, or the finer art of making a beautiful instrument that makes the most of _this_ set of wood.

But if flawless precision is something we hold up as an ideal, like, say, 'justice', realizing that it is probably unattainable in the real world, that's diifferent. Then it becomes something we can work toward as part of a greater whole, in proper subordination to the things that really do count, like beauty, playability, tone, and longevity.

One of the best things about this sort of proper understanding of the place of precision work is that it allows us to accept well meaning criticism as helpful. We all have egos, of course, and it's not fun when somebody tells you your 'baby' is ugly. But ego often hides these little flaws from the maker, and it can take an outsider to make the point that, after all, maybe you haven't quite mastered the art of cutting binding ledges. That sort of critique is especially helpful, of course, when it's phrased as, say: "You know, ever since I started using one of those binding cutting jigs I've had a lot less trouble getting the bindings to look right". Most luthiers I know, at whatever level, are interested in learning, and a criticism in the form of a general offer to teach is often well received.



Al,
I agree with mostly everything you said here. While majority of people here strive for better instruments both tonally and fit and finish worthy thats not always possible. When handcrafting an instrument the same precision as CNC is not always achievable. However I strive to make it as close as possible. I have seen Kevin Gallagher's, Lance, Brock and others work and I can attest that we all try to get it as good as we can and continue to perfect our craft. My problem is when I see sub-par craftsmanship or flaws disguised as intentional work.... and yes, I do make mistakes...

_________________
Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:35 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
Peter,
I make my share of mistakes too, but always like to go back and do the work again, if possible, in
an effort to offer the customer a guitar with the best work that I can offer them. I was talking to one
of the premiere builders in the world a little while ago and he told me of a recent experience of this
sort. He had a beautiful guitar completed and actually in the box ready to ship to the customer, but
there was a small detail on the guitar where the workmanship just didn;t reflect the very best that he
could have done on it.

He unpacked the guitar and took it from its case, removed the finish from that area and repaired
the work in question. He then applied fresh finish over and made sure that the set up was just right
before placing it back in the case and box and shipping it off.

That's the kind of behavior that could be perceived as obsessive by some, but it shows true integrity
on the part of the builder and a real concern for what he is sending to his customers.

We all make mistakes and, as I always have and will say, we can never achieve the accuracy and
repeatability of the CNC tooled shops, but we can get close. The appreciation that the majority of
players that entrust us builders with the task of creating great guitars for them have for our work
and the environments in we work respectively is a wonderful thing. They are gracious and are very
patient with us we toil away trying to keep up with the work load.


Allan,
I love the "ugly baby" analogy. It does always hurt to have even the smallest flaw in our work
noticed , let alone pointed out to us. I'm sure you, like myself, remember every tiny detail on a
guitar that wasn't perfect long after the guitar has left your bench. It's a funny thing, but I believe
a good one that we notice and make mental note of these little things as we move from guitar
to guitar and from customer to customer doing our very best to get better and better at the
little things that most people will never even notice.

I with you wholeheartedly, by the way, on the dimensional accuracy falling in importance when
considering a handbuilt instrument in comparison to a factory produced one. I've designed loads
of jigs and fixtures that are still in use in a large factory and the chief concern was always accurate
repeatability and the least possible man hours in the production sequence.

Great insightful post, thanks.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:04 pm
Posts: 28
First name: Steven
Last Name: Metz
City: Nahunta
State: GA
Zip/Postal Code: 31553
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I model my guitars asthetic on what Zematis and Paul Bigsby did. Have you ever played one of these instruments? They are not perfect. The workmanship on some of them is a little off. Both men were very good craftsmen but their instruments have a life of their own and sound amazing. They look like they are made by hand and not a CNC machine. I tell people that my guitars are the anti Paul Reed Smith guitar. The guitars have a worn in feel to them that players like. My necks are hand formed with a slight curve cut into the back of the neck. Some necks have a slightly square profile at customer request. Some times I leave file marks in out of the way places. Very similar to an artist that leaves his thumb prints on a painting or a Japanese potter that makes a tea cup a little off round. For me it is an artistic decision that my customers respond to.


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