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I'm getting tired of fighting my Delta 18/36. Too many problems with feed belt tracking, not to mention burning belts and having to take way too many itty-bitty passes on difficult woods.

I deserve a wide belt sander.

Who here is using a wide belt? If you don't mind, please post
1) What make/model do you have?
2) What other makes/models did you consider, and why did you choose the one you did?
3) If you were using a drum sander before, which one were you using, and how would you describe the difference between it and the wide belt?

Thanks for your opinions.

I have a Grizzly 18 incher. I use belts from Industrial Abrashives . Grizzly paper is terrible.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I'll give a heads up here just in case someone is interested.

We had a local company go out of business that had only been in business for roughly 6 months. They had bought a lot of good quality tools that were for sale at auction. I was out of town and couldn't attend but a co-worker was there.

They had a Grizzly 9979 Wide Belt Sander (sands 43 inches wide) that they had bought new and supposedly had used only 4 times. It looked like it had never been used and they had a pile of new belts they were selling with the machine. It has a 25 HP, 3 phase motor. Best I remember it sells new for $12k - $13k......and sold at auction that day for under $2,000.

A guy on Craig's list has it for sale (I assume the guy that purchased it at the sale but I'm not sure) and they are asking $6,500. Hasn't sold for awhile so who knows, he might make a deal. The extra belts sell with the sander. The sander is in NW Arkansas.

Here is a link to the ad: http://fayar.craigslist.org/tls/1320396766.html

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I had a Performax 10 20 plus and went to the Performax 16 32. I think the 10 20 did a fine job on small stuff but when doing something larger such as door inserts the 16 32 does better. I also think the 16 32 conveyer belt runs faster and it seems to take a bigger bite but I haven't actually checked this.
Chuck

Grizzly 18" - love it.

John - mind sharing the product number of the belts you are using?

Also, in what way are they an improvemnt over the Grizzly ones?

Thanks,
Jason

Just for clarity sake...

You are looking specifically for information on wide belt sanders, and not drum sanders, correct?

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Jim Hansen

Yes, Jim, I'm interested in the wide belts. I think if I'm upgrading, I'll do it just once.

At industrial Abrasives in Reading PA ( do a google search ) just ask for a 18 by 48 no loading belt. They make them custom. When in doubt as for the ones Blues Creek Guitars gets. I use 36 grit 60 grit and 80 grit 100 is too fine a cut and overheats. They are a heavy industrial belt and last a long time. Also invest in the belt cleaning pad . The big improvement is they are cloth backed and the no loading keeps the working a longer time.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

This is timely. I want to stop nursing things through the Delta 18/36. Had my eye on the 18" Griz wide belt, but the price jumped by $1000 in the space of 6 months, and I've heard from a couple of people (John H, Bob C) that they had problems with the tracking eye and motor burnout.

I'm now thinking about the 25" Powermatic dual drum w/ 5hp, the General International 15-265 (25" 7.5hp dual drum, front drum oscillates), or the Oliver 25" dual, w/ 10hp (single phase!), both drums oscillate. My thinking (help me here, please) is that the paper clogging/burning problem on drums might be mostly taken care of by having the extra width to feed even a joined 17" back at an angle. This makes a big difference on the little Delta. Also that one or two oscillating drums will help a lot (I know there's a new oscillating Jet, but at 1.75hp I'm afraid it's not enough machine). Also that getting the second drum set for a light cut I could run 60/80 grit and with 5 or more horses get a pretty good size cut with the second drum cleaning off any resin on the workpiece.

Even the Oliver costs less than the 18" Griz. The Powermatic can be had for about $3200 including shipping, and the General for about $4K. The Oliver is $4700 delivered.

I've left off Woodmaster, because I am told that the velcro paper attachment makes for less accuracy and a less level surface.

Thoughts on the big drum option? This will cost at least twice as much as my next most expensive machine, and be hard to get into the shop. I want to get it right.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard, I have the General International 15-250, 24 inch dula drum sander. It differes from the 15-265 in three main areas:
1) Mine does not oscillate
2) Mine has 5" drums, the 265 has 6" drums
3) Mine does not have ruber coated drums the 265 does.

I don't think the width will be your advantage, it isn't with mine. When sanding rosewood I go through paper like crazy. But oscillation and rubber coating on larger drums may help. I think it is all about heat dissipation. So you me be OK with these larger drum sanders but I have to say that it looks like they are nearly the cost of the 18 inch wide belt and that is where I would go. That belt really removes heat and last a lot longer. From the research I have done, it appears the sensor issues relate to poor vacuum and compressed air supply, both things that can be overcome. When my new shop is finished I will be getting at least the 18" and maybe even the 24 inch. I am in Canada so I would have to go and pick the machines up myself so I ma look for canadian equivelents, like what Michael Greenfield recently acquired.

In summary, I would try wide belt, even the open ended 15in wide belt for about $2K, I think is better than drum.

Shane

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Canada

Thanks Shane. I do get that the length of the belt makes for a lot of cooling. But I've noticed that the bigger wide belts take about a 60" belt, while the Griz and a few other small machines take 48". I can pretty easily load up a line in the belt of my 6x48" belt table sander, so belt length alone doesn't do the trick; I think without the oscillation of the belt, machines like the 18" griz would get belts loaded with resin. So how much difference would oscillation make to a drum? I dunno, but it sure helps a lot on a spindle sander.

The rubber coating thing has me confused, too. manufacturers like Powermatic say it dissipates heat. That makes no sense to me. Rubber insulates the metal drum from the paper. That keeps the drum from carrying heat away from the paper, acting as a heat sink. Is it possible that with the drum not soaking up heat, the paper loses it faster to the air? I don't really see why it should. The Oliver, BTW, has fluted drums that it says dissipate heat by having airflow under the paper. I can find zero reviews on the net of eiher the General 265 or the Oliver. The Powermatic is said to be very well built, but the reviews all come from people using it as a finishing sander in a cabinet shop.

We really abuse all these machines by using them as abrasive planers; it's not what they were designed for.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

This is timely for me as well. I have the opportunity to buy a Grizzly 18" wide belt in almost perfect condition for under $2000.

I would love someone to elaborate on any problems they have had with the machine.

I was really looking for a 24" with the 60" long belt. I agree with Howard that the length of the belt will help-more surface area.
Thanks,
Brad

I use Tim McKnight's from time to time and he had the problem with the eye. Dust builds up on it and it stops working and then the tracking needs to be manually reset. Tim rigged a compressor hose through the machine and now a quick tap of the button every so often clears the dust off the eye and it is good to go.

Not a perfect solution, but very workable.

Other than that the sander does an outstanding job.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I've got to ship a guitar off today, so I'll be brief. I started out with a Peformax 22-44 and then went to a Woodmaster which was a noticeably better machine in terms of paper loading. However, neither compare to the Grizzly wide-belt. I have an 18" and use it all the time. I haven't had any trouble at all. The Grizzly wide-belts are exceptionally nice tools, in my opinion.

There is simply no comparison to the performance and what you can do with a wide-belt. The paper simply doesn't load to the same degree like a drum sander. It takes me a lot of effort to load the paper and that usually only happens when the paper is old or you take way too heavy a pass.

You can most definitely get by with a drum sander. But having a wide-belt is a dream. Night and day performance.

Howard
So I think the difference between your 6 x 48 (I have a 6 x 80 some odd) and the wide belt sander is the length of the platen. On the wide belt sander it is only just touching the platen as the wood passes under it as apposed to contact with about 1/3 of the belt at any time. The drums on the drum sanders are typically aluminum (mine are) and they heat up fast and don't cool down very fast. So maybe the rubber slows the transfer of heat to the drum and also insulates any heat contained in the drum from entering back into the belt. The other issue I have with my drum sander (I run 60 in front and 80 on the outfeed) is that when I blow a belt (and that is not an infrequent occurrence!) it typically marks the living crap out of my drum as the paper reverses itself (abrasive on the drum) around the drum. I have had to sand it down by hand a bit on occasion. On more caveat though is that many guitar makers will not need to sand 30 to 50 sets of EIR at one time or run 60 sets of spruce through it in a run, so you encounter lower heating and belt wear issues that may be more manageable.

A few of my customers have wide belts and none of them that I have talked to would ever go back....kinda' like what Simon said!

Brad,
If I was closer I would be racing you to that sander!! Sounds like you should be spending money VERY soon!

Shane

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Canada

While I did have some issues with mine , I think we have it fixed. We tracked it to a cracked mount on the on controller . I replaced that , ( grizz paid for that ) and that did clear most issues . I also had to replace the eye , that may have been damaged from the bad control board. And yes the motor , I had an issue with that from day 1 ( 2003 ) and they replaced the motor grata this year. So in all I did have to put about $200 in the machine in parts as I have to pay for the Eye. Still the machine is easy to work on and the production off this is excellent but I won't use the belts from Grizz. I get a no loading paper from Industrial Abrashives , and this works well. Rosewoods will leak resins that need to be cleaned off but otherwise the paper lasts a long time.
In all fairness I do use this thing very heavy. Would I buy another , I think so . In all the machine did work well and there really isn't too many in the price range for this size belt sander. Sunhill Machinery also has a beltsander. That one is a 25 incher . I have to say that having used a double drum sander ,a performax and a few other brands ,even with the issues this sander still made me money and out performed all drum sanders. I won't even consider one today.
I have this running well now so if you do get a grizzly , the customer service was good and they did help . I also hear they are upgrading the motors.
This sander can do about 100 sets in a day , that is back and sides. You do need a good dust collector . Also I do recommend a good oil and water separator for the compressed air supply . This doesn't have a platen but neither does my friends time saver. They use the rubber rollers.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Where are you located, Brad? If it's in or near California and you don't want it, let me know.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Have any purchased or tried the Steel City 15"/30" 3 HP oscillating wide belt? You don't see much Grizzly here in Canada so most of the wide belts I come across are 3 phase monsters. I spotted the Steel City a while back in a tool store. It looked good to fit a small shop. I'd like to know how well it works. Like Shane, I own a duel drum, non oscillating General. If running the right wood it's great. If running the wrong wood it sucks. If your wife tries to plane a 1/2" wide stick down by running it through the middle of your freshly changed belts when you're not looking, that also sucks. I wouldn't advise buying an oscillating drum unless you have the opportunity to give it a good try before you buy.

Good Luck,
Danny

I can tell you that loading of resin on the belt sander ( 18 ) is a lot better than a drum . Before I bought this I used a local cabinet shops time saver. They loaded up as quick as mine do. The key is to use the right belt . I use a 36 grit to surface the faces. I like to leave about a .080 to clean out scratched, then I use a 60 and use that to finish out On spruce I will use an 80 grit.
The no load paper works very well. There is no platen on the sander but then there wasn't on the timesaver . The time saver had 2 drums the belt ran on. The grizzly uses one. The accuracy of the readout is only as good as you set it. I find that it is pretty accurate but you have to set the readout to the material you are working.
I have a steel City cabinet saw , and that came to me with a dead motor . When the new motor arrived , as I removed the the cap to wire it , the motor is Grizzly Green under the paint , so I think it is safe to say these are most likely made in the same factory . The Saw that I have is so very much like the griz short of the color . The saw does work flawlessly.
My friend has an Oliver and he had similar issues with his sander . Tracking and motor . I think today the companies look at price and quality isn't an issue. I can attest to Grizzly's customer support. I actually have the phone number to Justin , a tech at Muncy PA that I called direct so we could find out what was happening. I have the new eye and it is now working without a hitch.
It takes me about 30 seconds to swap out the belts . The belts last a long time. I can do 100 sets a day and as long as I keep the belt clean with the rubber pad the belts keep working.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Hey Danny, I have looked at those (only on line) and for $2K they sure are tempting! They well built and Steel City does not seem to have too bad of a reputation. I notice that General International is now making wide belts as well and have the same machine as the steel city, but then their first closed model is a 25 inch wide belt. And you don't get digital height control until you go 3 phase. I am still looking as I am sure that I will have to get something in the next couple of years.

Shane

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Canada

Unlike John and Shane, I am not sanding 100 sets a day; more like a dozen sets a year. So, unlike John and Shane, I don't have to give consideration to whether the machine has shortcomings that do not appear unless it gets much more use than I put it through. I wouldn't hesitate to spend the $5K on a widebelt if I was doing multiple sets every day. The question for me (and I guess many others) is where to draw the line between cost and convenience.

I find it very tedious to spend half an hour and a paper change to sand a back that comes generously thicknessed, which is what I do on my little Delta, taking off .003-.004" per pass (more bogs it down on rosewood). I've noticed myself avoiding thickness sanding until it is hanging up the progress of the work; that in itself tells me I need a change. But I could see working with a machine that did 3 or 4 full guitar sets on a paper change (hey, that's 2-3 months on a change), and sanded that joined back at .010-.015" per pass using about 7 minutes of my time, if the machine cost me $1500-2000 less. For my purposes, that's where the sweet spot is; the problem is picking the machine. It's right where the lowest price wide belts (like the 15" open end Griz for $3500, which has two lower rollers and a platen--which actually doesn't matter when you are only using the machine for abrasive planing), and the good drums (like the Powermatic with 5hp and two 6" drums) intersect. There is a 15" open end Griz for something in the $2500 neighborhood, but the question then is how much quality can you get in a wide belt at that price, how hard to maintain parallelism, how much open end vibration, whether you get a ridge at the 15" mark, etc.

BTW, the General Int. 245 is more machine than the 250. It looks the same as the 25" Powermatic. Two 6" drums is about 2/3 the paper surface as a 48" belt, which is not bad. And it really does make a big difference to feed the piece at an angle. Anyway, that's how I'm inclining today. Tomorrow may be different. Sure would be nice to talk with someone who has the oscillating drum 265 (which I have learned is made by Geetech).

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard,
There is no doubt that the 265 and 260 are different machines. I am not sure how different but they are indeed different and for the better I am sure of that. But I can still run sets at an angle (and fully cross sand if I want to) in my 260. For 3 guitar sets every once in a while, you can probably use any sander you want, just set the appropriate amount of time aside, 7 minutes or half an hour for one guitar per month really isn't that much of difference in the big picture, but when you are doing 100 sets (I know that you are not) it makes a big difference. But I think you really nailed your issue, and it is also mine with my 260, you are leaving sanding until you absolutely have to! So, the advise we are trying to share is that, given a choice, I would go wide belt. If I had to do it again I might even have go with open ended 15 in wide belt over my 260.

Anyway, back on to your request. I have the contact information for the Canada's western region sales rep (if he is still there) and I can give him a call and ask for a customer or two how would be willing to discuss the 265. When I bought me sander I also bought a 20 inch planer and 24 inch re-saw through him at the same time and he is pretty good about linking people up with people that are using the equipment. PM me if you are interested.

Good luck man!
Shane

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Canada

Where are you located, Brad? If it's in or near California and you don't want it, let me know.[/quote]

Howard,
I am in NY. I just bought the machine for $1800. I have to rent a tailgate-lift truck in order to pick it up. I am very excited!!

Howard, I've been using the Powermatic DDS225 for several years. It does a decent job, but I don't know that you're going to see a significant difference between the drum sanders. It's solid and they just improved the screwjacks which they used to have a fine thread on the and no boot and they'd rack and get out of adjustment and jam. They don't have that problem anymore. Rosewood will always bung up the sandpaper, even on a widebelt sander. Just for perspective, I used to use the widebelt at Pearlworks, where they have several Lobos, which are superb machines. Even on those machines that are platen machines with DRO and digital height adjustment, you don't want to do more than .010" on rosewood as it will bog down the machine and it will leave tracks in the sandpaper.