Official Luthiers Forum!

I believe it was William Cumpiano who once said something similar to this "no one is an expert until they have made every possible mistake and worked their way out of it" ...

Well, I am working earnestly towards my expert ranking

Build #4 has proven to be as trying as all my other 3 combined.
In short I have learned how to remove a neck, a bridge and a top, how to fix a top when a router bit came loose and went too deep on an end graft, plus many more knee-slappers!

The top ended up too thin after a finish mishap and subsequent re-sanding.
After the initial disappointment wore off, the rest of the guitar was beautiful so I didn't have the heart to scrap the whole thing so I decided that I might as well try my hand at removing a top and re-topping the guitar.
I successfully removed the top (pretty easy since I wasn't too concerned with salvaging) and have just recently finished the new top and will be closing the box, perhaps even tonight still.

I will try & get some pics up of where I'm at .... I may have questions .....

_________________
Christopher C. Cordle
North Muskegon, MI

http://www.yardsaleunderwear.com
http://www.facebook.com/christopher.cordle

Didn't know it was possible to make every mistake. I'm still working on them...
Knowing how to hide them is the trick, and knowing when to stop trying to fix them and rebuild.

I actually believe that becoming an expert would have a little to do with seeing others
make a lot of the mistakes possible in lutherie and then knowing how to avoid them.

Also, it's important that others are the ones who deem you an expert and not yourself.

Play a few of Cumpiano's guitars. They will also be a clear indicator of how he's
done on the path to becoming an expert. The same goes for all luthiers. I've watched
as guys have surfaced out of nowhere and aligned themselves with others who claim
to or give the impression of knowing everything and have fooled some of the less
experienced and knowing guitar making and buying public into thinking that they're
experts or masters at the craft, but their guitars continually tell a different story than
their mouths do.

Some of them had built only a dozen or so guitars and were already offering open
critique on the much finer work of builders they should be bowing before and gleaning
some knowledge from. Especially at some of the well attended shows....they've become
a dreaded presence there as they lurk around looking for a builder's work to put down
or to compare as being inferior to their own less than stellar guitars. Sad, but they
obvioiusly believe some of the emperor's new clothing style stories they tell just to
hear themselves talk. Impressive formulas and calculations and matematics that mean
and prove absolutely nothing come out of their mouths, but some people buy into
them and fail to see that they're actually naked when it comes to real life skill and
knowledge.

Expertise is really in the eyes of the beholder.

Put in decades doing repair and restoration work, prove your ideas in building by
actually building good numbers of guitars and you'll have built a fair foundation for
people to begin to consider you an expert from.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I'll drink to that!

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

YES...!

_________________
A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Dear Mr. Gallagher,

My post was an attempt at humor of my many follies. Nothing more.

_________________
Christopher C. Cordle
North Muskegon, MI

http://www.yardsaleunderwear.com
http://www.facebook.com/christopher.cordle

Can't agree more on what Kevin said. It's kinda frustrating that some people do appreciate the emperor's new clothing thingy.

my favorite quote, from Cumpiano, sums this up nicely... everyone wants to BE something, but nobody wants to BECOME something.

I am trying to work on the "becoming" part, I suspect it will take the rest of my life. I am pretty sure the original post was in this spirit, and I appreciate the reminder.

_________________
"Everyone wants to BE something, but nobody wants to BECOME something" - William Cumpiano

Latest mistake: Eyeing a drill hole that needed to be perfect 90 drill press, I find out. Have to fill it. Its on a wood tool, but still, either do it right, or don't do it. But the plane seems to work well, for doing the truss rod slot. If you have never done something, or are trained as an apprentice for 4 years to do lutheri, then of course you will make mistakes.

I made the mistake of buying some wood for a carving rough cut, instead of paying $20.00 mpre to have it ready to go, so now Im spending 3 weeks to plane it down by hand......it never seems to end. Im taking a lutheri break to work on woodcarving commission, very little can go wrong with that. I'm not an "expert" to 'my' standards, but I don't have to be!!

Maybe we should have a "I just did it right' thread.

_________________
Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

Nice to see you around again Chris.

_________________
jw ( o)===:::

Yep - I can certainly add THAT ONE to my list of mistakes! I guess I'm getting closer to that higher ground.

_________________
The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

Chris -

Man, do I empathize with your situation.

On my #4, I managed to do just about everything at least twice, including bending one of the sides , gluing the laminated neck (managed to start shaping it while it was upside down and overthinned one side) - if that doesn't count as a boneheaded maneuver....
Other highlights - I ended up having to brace to back twice - humidity shifts in my shop caused it to become very potato chip like...

Anyway - although it's not quite finished, I think it might be my best to date...after all this, I certainly hope so. And like you, I think I've become a better builder for having experienced all of this. One thing is certain, though. No one, except perhaps my kids, will be considering me an expert.

On the other post - what a shame - that in this group of people who are so dedicated to this wonderful craft, are a few who use their energy to put others down. In my limited experience in luthiery I've found quite the opposite to be the rule. Even my incompetent first guitar was met with encouragement by folks who certainly knew better. Well, the fact that they aren't actually very experienced is probably an indicator. I'll keep my eyes and ears open for 'em at shows, and will head the other way when I get those vibes. Life's too short to be expending energy on criticizing the work of others.

Nice to hear from some old friends on here and to make acquaintances with some new folks as well.

On the good news front, I closed the box today and bent some new bindings.

Here's a pic with the top cut off ...

And the back, the reason I couldn't bring myself to scrap it

and lastly, the new top ... cedar with a rosewood rosette to tie in with the bindings.

_________________
Christopher C. Cordle
North Muskegon, MI

http://www.yardsaleunderwear.com
http://www.facebook.com/christopher.cordle

This is one of those venommous posts that I feel responsible people need to address and not simply ignore. But it also seems inappropriate to foul up Chris's sweet thread where he was simply sharing some of his recent "experiences" with the community.

So, if you have something that you would like to get off your chest, Mr. Gallagher, perhaps you can start your own thread where your issues can be discussed in a meaningful way. And if you do that, I at least, would find it more helpful if you were more direct and less obtuse in you comments. For example, when you say something like:



I can't be sure what you're trying to sa. To me, it seems like you're implying that Cumpianono makes a crappy guitar, especially when I consider the rest of the words you put in the same paragraph. And what issues you have with math, and why you think math proves nothing- it's hard to know what to say about a comment like that.

Perhaps you have somthing important to say that would be helpful to someone but from what you wrote, if you do, I can't find it.

My appoligies for adding something that was not in the spirit of of your thread, Chis, but I just felt something needed to be said about this post.- other than cheering this kind of behaviour on.

Regards,

John Platko

Take a deep breath, John. Count to ten, then read Kevin's post again, and yours. I think you misread his perspective on this.

I read that if you play Cumpiano's early guitars and later ones you can feel and hear the difference, much like it is in the case of other builders. I also read that there are a bunch of "New Builders" out there, spouting technical details and math, about stuff that they are doing, while taking pot shots at other builders who have been building for years, and these guys show up at the guitar shows, and show off thier stuff and put down other's stuff. I also read that being an expert should not be the opinion of the builder, but the opinion of others.

Sure don't see much out of line with that.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Hi John,

I appreciate your post. I must admit I was taken aback by Mr. Gallagher's post initially.
So much so, that I just had to let it go ... I wasn't even sure how to address it.
All I can really say is that my "expert" statement was just a poke at myself for learning the hard way nearly every time.
Maybe Mr. Gallagher's humor & mine differ, or perhaps my words got taken out of context, then again, maybe I just caught him on a bad day. I really don't know. Either way it's all good.
He has given me advice & been very helpful in the past so I will just chalk this down as pre-emptive advice.

_________________
Christopher C. Cordle
North Muskegon, MI

http://www.yardsaleunderwear.com
http://www.facebook.com/christopher.cordle

I normally don't jump in on threads where there is strife, but I just need to say this. I have known Kevin Gallagher online for a couple of years on more than one forum. I've NEVER known him to be anything other than someone willing and eager to help where he can. I see his post as blowing off steam at situations he has encountered over so called "experts", and not aimed at the OP or anyone else here. It's true, I don't speak for him, but with everything I know about him, I'd be more than inclined to give him the benefit of a thousand doubts. MHO.
I also respect John, and realise he was reacting to what he viewed as an attack on the OP and/or others. An honorable action. I hope we can all move past this now.

_________________
Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

It is possible that I misunderstood what Kevin was saying. That's why I said.



Well ok, I did as you requested.

So, you read Kevin to be saying.



What Kevin actually said was.



Notice that he doesn't say anything about comparing early guitars to later guitars. He just says play a few .. that will indicate how he's done on the path to becoming an expert.

Notice that he didn't say "They will also be a clear indicator of how he's become an expert".

And as I said in my post:



So let's look at those words. I highlighted some of the key words.



It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to think that Kevin is refering to Cumpiano as one of these experts or master at the craft fooling the public- "but their guitars continually tell a differnt story than their mouth" After all, whoose guitars was Kevin asking us to play at the beginning of the paragraph- for a clear indicator.

I stand by what I originally said, I can't be sure but it sounds to me like Kevin is dissing Cumpiano. It may not be the only way to read his post, I don't see how it's an unreasonable one. As Mike mentioned, Kevin's post might have just been blowing off steam, I can understand that, you don't have to spend much time on any of the forums (although I think the OLF has done the best job of giving priority to civil discourse over guitar wiserdity than any other forum.) to understand why you might want to blow of steam. The same goes for the guitar shows. I"m simply suggesting that there is a better way to "blow off steam" then Kevin's post demonstrates. I'm interested in hearing Kevin's point of view, for example, I would love to hear what his issue with math is.

I think that the best person to clear this up is Kevin.

Regards,

John







I also read that there are a bunch of "New Builders" out there, spouting technical details and math, about stuff that they are doing, while taking pot shots at other builders who have been building for years, and these guys show up at the guitar shows, and show off thier stuff and put down other's stuff. I also read that being an expert should not be the opinion of the builder, but the opinion of others.

Sure don't see much out of line with that.[/quote]

What is unclear or offensive about this?

Now... there could be some discussion that some folks out there are "Teachers" while others are "Craftsmen" -- and that many Teachers are capable of bringing a student to a level of mastery that they may not even be able to reach...

And.. a craftsman may not be able to teach... even though they are able to make masterworks...

Mickey Mantle was a terrible hitting coach... His advise was "Just hit the ball!" Compare this to Archie Manning (Payton and Eli's dad)... Decent Pro QB... but his kids.... He taught them to be better QB's than he really ever was..

But... I don't read Kevin's post as aimed at these folks... I don't see his venom aimed at a Somogyi... or even a Cumpiano...

but rather the same Poseurs that Cumpiano speaks about.... who talk a big game ... taking Pot shots at the Pros during the Shows... (Look at those dents in the Linings and that glue smear under the finish.... Signs of Poor Workmanship!)... but whose own Guitars stand squarely in the company of the $129.99 Esteban's and Indiana's of the world... Neither playable, nor Musical...

Thanks

John

Wow, my first thread since Dec. of '08 and I stir up a hornet's nest
... makes me feel glad to be back .....
maybe I'll go back to lurking, or better yet, my bench.

Out.

_________________
Christopher C. Cordle
North Muskegon, MI

http://www.yardsaleunderwear.com
http://www.facebook.com/christopher.cordle

Wow! Relax John. My post is actually as harmless as it was intended to be. As in any other
field, I believe that a luthier should be recognized and touted as an expert by others before
he begins to promote himself as being one. Not unreasonable in any way. We, unfortunately,
have many who call themselves experts and depict themselves as such without the skill or
experience that would prove it or back it up.

First, I have no issue with math at all. My issue is with the few builders who seem to want to
prove their ideas or theories with formulas and equations in an effort to boost the perception that
others have of them. Tone and may other aspects of lutherie are so subjective that they present
enough variables to prevent them from being nailed down and backed up or explained using
numbers, formulas or any manner of equation.

My math is good and I've relied on my abilities there for decades as I'd worked as a journeyman
machinist, tool maker and tool designer as well as an R&D engineer so I'm a strong proponent of
the application of math in the work environment. And while I still rely on it heavily, it's in the absolute
realm of physical work and not in the illusive areas of tone, volume, harmonic content and others
of that sort. There are literally a small handful of builders whose guitars have been able to back up
their claims of having been able to closely and accurately document the results of their efforts using
formulas and equations. Most who do it have probably been impressed by those guys and want to
create similar impression in the people who listen to them.


Secondly, I did get and enjoy the original intent and tone of the thread and had no problem with it
at all. In light of the recent shows that many of the fine builders who frequent the forums attended,
a few things were lit in me that were actually sparked by emails and phone calls I'd received from a
dozen or so of those builders. I heard stories of the same guys...who are mostly less experienced
builders with only low numbers of guitar under their belts that still show entry level skill and tone....
lurking around the shows offering unsolicited critique of builders with much more experience and much
more skill than themselves.

The builders who have received these critiques know who the critics are and express similar frustration
in private, but don't want to in public for their own reasons.

As far as Cumpiano's guitars being a clear indicator of how he's done on the path of becoming an
expert, I'd recommend that for the guitars of any builder. Let the guitars speak for the builders' abilities
and knowledge. Listen to the tone and see if it exhibits the kind of tone that can't be achieved by simply
gluing woods together in the same manner as their favorite builder does. We have an abundance of guys
who are directly copying their favorite builders guitars and have for a couple of decades. Then, look at
the details of the overall fit and finish of the guitars to see if it exhibits the kind of care and ability that
can't be achieved with only 12, 20 or even 50 guitars coming out of a shop. And don;t forget to really pay
attention to the set up of the guitar to see whether or not it shows the builder's awareness of what an
experienced player wants to feel when they play a guitar and their ability to achieve it on their guitars.

Then you'll be able to tell if a particular builder can be considered an expert on the craft or not. I'm
the shop expert here at Omega Guitars....probably because I'm the only guy who works here. Am I an
expert in the industry or the lutherie community? Not by a stretch. I have just about 500 acoustic guitars
under my belt and am still learning and growing as a luthier and a craftsman in general. The fact is, though,
that there are guys who are counted as experts all over this industry whose guitars are still reflecting
sophomoric ability and knowledge. They'll be quick to let you know that they're experts, but will have
any number of excuses and reasons for the quality of their work.

Sorry that my post ruffled your feathers so deeply....it wasn't my intention. In most industries there
are testing and awarding organizations or bodies that lend some credibility to the status of many of the
accomplished folks in them. Lutherie is not one of them.

It wasn't so much blowing off steam as it was just saying some things that a number of people are
feeling and have been affected by, but would rather not say.

Thanks,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Kevin, I would certainly agree that those critiquing instruments without the knowledge and experience, or whose level of expertise is well below that of those they are criticising would be considered unfavourably, but my response to it would be who cares? I guess IMHO, what would be more important is the input and critique of those who you actually build for. The customers and musicians who chose the instruments based on what is right and feels right for them.... and they will be as varied in knowledge of the build process as they will be in many cases in playing style and level of skill.

I mention this because as a newbie on the build side, but as a customer of some 25 years, having owned both custom builds (Tom Mates, Patrick James Eggle) and Martin, Santa Cruz and Collings from the 'factory' output, you do get to recognise what works for you and its a strange thing. For example, I picked up an expensive handmade US imported instrument in my local shop from a maker you would all have heard of. It was second hand built in abut 1987 and priced at some £4999 ($7500) The guitar in question was a little on the bling side for me (more abalone than in the pacific!) the inlay was good, but not perfect and yes there was glue showing on the linings - even a bit of squeeze out visable on the back braces... but when you strumed or picked this thing it blew away every other guitar in the shop - simply magnificent tone - I wanted it, but alas it was sold within five minutes because i think ultimately most players are perhaps less picky about those details when the tone is just so perfect - and that's a very personal thing. Another example is pick up any Martin and run your finger across the bindings and its never level with the sides - impact on tone = zero, but unlikely to pass a QC test from pro hand makers I would suspect, but they nail the tone more often than not.

I as a player I have also had the opposite, in that I have been dissapointed in the tone of some beautifully crafted instruments - now is that my ear, my style or ignorance? who knows - possibly my style because I am sure it sounded great when someone else played it ! I would never criticise the workmanship on these instruments and maybe I am not qualified to criticise the tone either, who knows, but I certainly as a customer know what works for me and I might well put something back on the wall because it does nothing for me, yet it may well be perfect for the next person's style. (and yes I am very envious of those players who are so skilled they could make the cheapest of laminated starter guitars sound like a pre war OM! )

But the point is that, surely its more important what your customers think of what you craft than peers whether experienced and those who have 'earned ' the right to critique, or those simply full of C***.

Its human nature I guess as well, to be defensive of ones craft. If you invest 20+ years of time and effort leaning skills that can only be aquired by such dedication and experience, having someone who 'believes' they have knowledge, but actually have none about the construction process 'talk rubbish' is never going to go down well. I would suggest though that its not that important, as players/customers will make up their own minds on what works for them both visually, on the detail, playabilty and tone. And they will have a lot of diverse opinions. For me as a modest player, the standards attained by custom builders are phenomenol and have meant that teh high end factory makers have had to raise their game, it really is a golden age with so many wonderful instruments to aspire to... as a nwbie maker its horrible, because it makes you realise how far you have to go to get even close - but its sure fun (if frustrating and expensive) trying!

Man, you folks sure have gone off the deep end here!
Take a pill and re-read the OP, this guy is just commenting on his own mistakes. Maybe looking for a little sympathy, and folks that have also been "there".
Why this thread has deteriorated into a thread about "beginners" criticizing "professionals is beyond me...why don't we turn it around and get back to the subject at hand...making mistaks?
Chris, looks like a nice recovery!

It is funny how all this discussions circles back around...

When I finished the Retop on my Esteban.... I thought I was pretty good...
but it was only good enough to get it "Playable" -- the thing was fun to play, but sounded very stiff... like a $200.00 Epiphone... I have subsequently done quite a bit of fiddling around and adjusting on it, and have gotten it quite a bit better.... but does it sound "Great?"

Then I built my Cherry Ditson GC -- and several local musicians *Really* like it.... and I thought "Man, I am on to something here! I'm going to be a Real Guitar Builder!"

Then I started Build #2 -- an Oak Ditson GC..... But... now these guys are paying attention to what I am doing... talking about buying one if I can get it to sound like the 1st one....

and Luckily reality struck before I got too far down that road....

As I got into this build... I realized that I have no idea "How" to make it come out good or "How" to bring out a particular sound.... I realized that the end results were mostly due to a combination of building a "Flat flat top," building light and pure random chance....

and in my mind... Pure random luck on 1 build in a row does not make one an Expert!
That will take at least 1-more build....

Thanks

John

A good perspective and one I can empathise with! No 2 is proving somewhat more problematic... I think though you can be an 'expert' in some area - at an earlier stage Eg if you see a $5000 dollar guitar and cleanliness is your thing and this has glue all over the place you dont need to be an expert to say its 'not clean' (but commenting on the areas where its not obvious and you have little knowledge or none, is not teh smartest way to go about things) - I would always be happy to ask questions of pros when looking at an instrument or testing one out because its a great way to LEARN about their theories and what they understand contributed to the instruments tone etc. The confusing thing for many customers is the variety of repsonses you will get as many Luthiers have their own theories and explanations etc....

Its that age old question that has compounded makers for years - we still dont understand what makes a stradivarius as great as it is, we undertsnd the principles including some of teh science, but if we knew it all we would be able to recreate it!

The principles of guitarmaking are pretty straight forward and master these basics you can build a good guitar - the tricky bit comes when wanting to consistently build GREAT instruments. And for me thats where real expertise comes in... that consistency of producing great instruments whatever methods used, from complex and detailed data accumaltion or 'innate' or an instinct based on years of experience does not matter, the key for me would be thatconsisteny of quality