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If ziricote is Mexican Crackwood, then I guess BRW is Rio Crackwood.

I have 2 sets resawn from a plank inherited from an Argentine friend whose father built grandfather clocks for the rich & famous in S. America, stacked & stickered and waiting for the right inspiration and the accumulation of experience. It is of the straight-grained "boring" variety and has moved hardly at all in 2 years.

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

80 years of seasoning on the stump does a lot to stabilize wood. And remember that these stumps are 5-6 feet tall, and the topmost cut is wood that grew adjacent to some that is now prized as old growth, cut 80 years ago.

Sets of BR, whether stump or not, need to be individually evaluated.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Are players and builders sucked into the mystery and mystique surrounding this highly prized wood? Had Martin built those early guitars with Claro Walnut would we be having the same desire to seek out what dwindling reserves there are either CITIES or otherwise?

It's a question that I have asked myself more and more since I started building - Previously just as a player, there was certainly a desire to own a Rio guitar, but as wil all these things the price premium - surprizingly more from new builds was possibly a factor - amazing how we can sometimes think something is better because its rare and expensive! . Here in the UK you can buy a good late 60s Brazillian D28 or D35 cheaper (Approx £3000-£3500) than a new custom build from Rio (typically £4000-£6000+)... dont get me started on how much Martin charge for a new Rio build!

Is a Rio Guitar really worth in tonal qualities 3 to 4 times the amount of something buid from say Malaysian Blackwood or A nice piece of Honduran? Sure its all subjective, and customer demands will most likely dictate and feed this need to have a stash, but I am struggling to 'hear' a difference in quality that should be demande4d by a £3000 premium... supply and demand is one thing, but is the demand justified by the tone or is it the mystery?

I think string makers have been luckier in that customers do seem more willing to try alternatives, yet as soon as they get popular so the price increases.. Classical makers still seem to be more under teh cosh from customer demands for the traditional (ironic really considering Torres used avariety of tone woods for back and sides)... yet many classical makers would argue that Honduran is a fine alternative

Eventually it will be all gone, as so even I succumbed resently and found a set of lovely Spiders webbed Old Growth to use one day when the skills would justify the price - but considering the results I have seen and heard by makers using alternatives including Macassar, Amazonian, Ziracote, Blackwoods etc, I am not sure
that it will make such a huge difference as would be expected by the price?

PS. Still could not resist scraping a bit and rubbuing over with the spirit - absolutely stunned by the richness of the colour!

More counterpoint - I have sniffed bona fide BRW that did not have that strong of a bubble-gum smell at all. I will go out on a limb and guess that the older the wood, the less it will smell like BRW.

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

Eh, hang on to that branch, it's goin' down...
My BR is over 70 yrs old and really perfumes the shop when I sand it.

I have been using BRW for over 10 years. I have yet to handle a piece that when sanded didn't have that aroma. Still BRW is a terrific wood but there are other good woods also. BRW also has a signature grain structure as do all woods. This can be identified under a good micro scope or through chemical analysis. Old stock will often need to have new surface exposed for the smell but it will be there. It will also feel very hard and brittle. The colors can run from black to yellowish often with spider webbing streaks. I can't pass 10 years of experience with this stuff in a few paragraphs but once you handle it and see and smell it you will learn .
At ASIA I had a set of BRW binding mixed in with EIR to see if anyone would notice. Sylvan Wells saw it on Fri and he got to take it home. I was surprised how many looked at it and put it back not knowing what it was.
As Alan Carruth points out , this is a difficult wood to work with . It is not a wood for a beginner to try to work but it is one that is worth the effort once you have some experience or if you have a good mentor to help you. The post of If martin used Claro Walnut , well they used BRW and I agree that is part of the mystique. Martin is the bar to which guitars are mostly rated on .
If you do plan on getting BRW , educate yourself to what it is and what is or isn't a desirable piece. Ebay is flooded with sellers that are exploiting the market and know less about it . You can get burned big time if you don't know what to look for.
Good luck on your search

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Quick question for bluescreek: Thanks for the insights by the way. You mention its difficult to work, and certainly my mentor who builds pro standard classicals has tales of woe of cracks and sides distorting etc and he has close to 20 years experience working with the stuff... how would you say it works in comparison to other tonewoods such as the ebonies (B+S), or some of the other more 'exotic' woods?

The set I have is beautiful in colour, that deep rich reddish brown spiders webbed in the centre section moving to a darker colour towards the outer edges. I dont intend on using this for a number of years when my skills will hopefully have improved and the number of guitars under the belt has significantly increased, or I might even keep it and have a pro name build me something with it...

Sorry final question for you and others experienced with this wood. I have a very nice pice of AAA Adi Spruce from Uncle Bob. Its a nice uniform colour piece that has some nice close grain in the centre but it does widen towards the outer edge - has great tap tone, but is not as stiff as some of the two Master German spruce tops I have which have similar bell like qualities. Would you consider using the adi or German with the Rio? I know its tricky without seeing the sets, but I ask from a 'general perspective' - I am wanting to build a traditional OM so my gut instinct is Rio/Adi, but if the German is better? I only ask because finding this set was not easy and it was not cheap - so I am trying to think of everything as I may only get one shot at a Rio guitar...

I would put this difficulties up there with the ebonies. This wood can be very brittle and again it is a piece by piece situation. Bending is only a part of this. You can understand the difficulties in the binding process. You havea to be careful how you block the spreaders in the mold and any cutting and trimming.
The wood does sand very well but filling is just like the other Rosewoods . Lots of pores and often small cracks and worm holes. I try and fill the holes as I sand down. While I may sound like a scare fest , this wood is worth the effort. I love the look , smell and sound. I am a big fan of BRW and Adi. I don't like cedar on it for steel strings but again that is my preference.
The tonal response and inference this wood gives is worth the effort. I don't recommend this wood till you have experience and understanding of the building process.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I have a brw/adi 00 that I would easily take over almost any other guitar I have built - or ever played. I was at the Cdn NAMM yesterday and spent some time playing the newest Martins (Steve Howe prototype, 1 of 4, new Dss model, nice little 0, and some other old faithful models .... wouldnt have traded mine for any 4 of them ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Thanks for the pointers guys - do not fear I wont be tackling this for a few years yet - too scary

I have built using Macassar which was triky on the bend and hard on the tools, but finishing was a lot simpler, but the rio will wait a while - the question re Rio/Adi vs Rio/German - assuming all other things are equal (appropriate bracing and thicknessing for the top in question, In general terms what is the thinking on tonal qualities - what would you 'expect' - Assume OM - maybe slightly deeper body? Just wondered if anyone had any thoughts based on experience with these combinations etc - As to what I want to achieve? The ultimate tone machine naturally

Even at the time I think there were issues all rosewood looking timbers shipped out of Brazil label Brazilian rosewood. I've been given some pieces of wood that I took with me to the luthiery/exotic wood, timber yard, the guy there's specialist he trained as a luthier and is a very knowledgeable, the pieces I took with me thinking were Brazillian weren't unfortunately at the time Brazilian was imported to the UK mixed in with the shipments or unscrupulous wood yards there was, Pau Ferro (swartzia madagascariensis) and Santos Rosewood (Machaerium scleroxylon) he though it more likely it was Santos because of the pores and didn't have the bubble gum smell which is indicative of true Brazilian though you need to get through the oxidised layers as mentioned.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes