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Hi Guys,

Anyone out there tap tune your body to the C256/A431 scale? Siminoff's book on Tap Tuning illuded to the fact that some of the older more famous instruments by Gibson and others where tap tuned to this scale, and when the stings are tuned to A440, the quatertone difference really makes the instrument special. I am looking for feedback from someone that has done this or has an instrument tuned in this configuration. How does it sound? Is it worth doing? I am building an OM cutaway. Any feedback is appreciated.

Best regards,
Ted

Hi Guys,

Do you tap tone? If so, do you do it to A440?

Best regards,
Ted

Hi, Ted,

I'm sorry no one else has responded to your post. I've read Siminoff's books, but I have not attempted to try his methods yet. I think he makes a reasonable case for tap tuning as a way to get a consistent sound, however. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Joe

Ted,
I bought the book and read it. It made sense, but I have not made one instrument with that method. My guitars are well received by their owners.
Obviously I don't find it necessary to tune per Siminoff's method. I believe many of the "better" builders tap tune by ear. It is learned through building many instruments.
I'm an engineer and I wanted to escape all the measuring gadgets I use for work while I build. I have an aversion to this type of thing. You might find it useful, but I doubt it. Try the more natural method of tap tuning. Listen using the same tools your players will use on your guitars - ears.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Steve,

I am a little perplexed by your response. Sounds like you are saying tap tuning has merit, yet don't use electronic tools to identify tone, use your ears.

It would be awesome if someone that has tap tuned using Siminoff's method would comment on their outcome(s), particularly if they tuned to the c256 scale.

Best regards,
Ted

you should do a search on tap tuning in the archives, i say this because the subject has been discussed , debated,disected, dialoged and disputed far into exhaustion,on this forum, and most of the others. it is a highly debated topic,I have heard very successfull builders call Roger a genius in one breath and then say they do not tune to specific notes in the next breath. the successfull builders that have devised a formula are protective of it, and rightly so I believe! personaly I feel I have a handle on the subject, but after building only two guitars , it is still speculation on my part. Jody

Ted,
I don't know why you are perplexed. You seem to understand exactly what I said.

That's my opinion and it works for me and many others. I think there are very few that use electronics to tap tune. That being said, it works well for those that do. There are many ways to go about this.
Would you tune the plates off the guitar or on the guitar? Off the guitar does not make any sense to me, yet people are successful with it.
Remember, most of what you read here are opinions - what works for us. There are very few absolutes in building. There are some. Learning to tell the difference is important.
You'll start to be able to tell the difference after you get a few builds in.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Hi,

Does anyone have expereince tap tuning that would share feedback regarding the sound of the finished instrument?

Are there professional Luthiers you know of that tap tune in a similar way to Siminoff? If so, have you heard there instruments?

Best regards,
Ted

Can someone give s bried description of the Siminoff method for those of us who don't have the book?

Basic concept is tap tuning the sound board and back and sides (including each tone bar) to a specific note in a particular scale, using a strobo-tuner (or ear, but easily quanitified by the strobo-tuner) Then achieving the optimal diameter of the soundhole for the specific instrument your making. The idea is to tone each element so there are no "Wolf" notes, either by tuning a quarterstep down from A440, A431 or tuning to the A440 scale but using a varity of tonings that will complement each other and not have one tone stand out to much. (Ex. you wouldn't want to tone several components to E, unless you want the instrument to explode with noise when an E is played)

There are many varities and variations on this method, but that is generically the concept. The premise is that each component has a resonant frequency that can be measured and contributes to the overall sound quality of the final instrument. Siminoff says that earlier Gibson's and many type's of prized collectors type violins, etc where tuned in this general fashion (obviously not using a peterson strobotuner:) )

I would be really intersting to hear from an independent luthier who has expiremented with this method.

Hi Guys:
I tried to use Siminoffs methods without success. I tuned the plate in a clamped arrangement, after mounting the plate in the box it had changed. After binding it had changed again, after cleanup sanding it had changed again, after grain filling it had changed again, after paint it had changed again. Mounted the bridge, guess what? it had changed again. Gave Up.................... Mikey

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

I built my first & used Siminoffs method with the strobe set at A/431. I was building a Martin OOO orchestra model. I first showed the design to one of our local guys who has built hundreds of guitars over a 35+ year career. He gave me the basic sizes of the braces & the aprox thickness of the top, which were all smaller than the design I was working with. I then glued it up in a vacuum press with the braces pre shaped.
It was all sitka with split braces. An African blackwood bridge support made thinner & smaller than the design. I used all the braces that were in the design.
It has a very long sustain & seems balanced over the complete range of the insturment.
I intend to build 4 more this winter using the same method. Although I have bought the caruthers dvd & may through one of those in also as the only variable in the lot.
It may be like one of the supply houses said "no guitar sounds better than the one you made"
I spoke to siminoff along the way & was really helpful.
I recomend it.
Mike McNerney

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Mike McNerney

Here is a very important Caveat... Roger Simonoff is primarily a Mandolin builder... and I really believe his specific techniques and methodologies as presented are part of his specific technique of building his mandolins... He really doesn't do much with guitars in his book or video... While I am sure his techniques work well as part of his Holistic system of building mandolins... the exact directions in the book don't really seem well suited for use in a vacuum -- outside of the rest of his system and applied to other instruments

What I am getting at... If you build an F5 Mandolin to the specs in Simonoff's Mandolin book... with his supplied wood... then tune it as he instructs... you may get good results.

But... I don't think it directly applies to any random instrument as written. I guess the part I got hung up about was tuning only the individual braces to some frequency rather than trying to get the whole system to behave in some predictable way... We play "Guitars" ... not X braces or Finger braces or Tone bars.....

Like... say your Top is extra stiff... High density red spruce at 0.150" thick going onto an O sized instrument.... so you tap away at the braces and tune only as he instructs... Ignoring the top plate.... shave each one till the individual brace reads whatever number he gives.... How does that help the entire system? Will you ever get the top plate back into the right range?

Counter this against a guy like Greg Byers who teaches a tuning technique specifically for his Classical guitars....
He tunes his unbraced top plate to some frequency
Then he tunes his braced top plate to some frequency
Then he tunes his braced top plate glued to the ribs to some frequency....
Then he tunes the Closed box to some frequency.....

You see the difference in logical progression.... Get the raw top wood into the right frequency range... then with the bracing, then the sub assembly, then the final system....

Good luck

John

John,
I am not sure that is a fair characterization of Roger's method. He is very clear that the instrument is a coupled system, the product of all it's parts, including the soundboard. He has an entire chapter on the soundboard. And, "The Luthiers Handbook" is mostly about guitars. He has been at this a LONG time and has thought and investigated and experimented extensively on this subject over many years. It is true that intuitively many people will process information in different manners and people will grasp aspects of this information in different fashions. So it is quite likely that many will not agree with Roger's system but that is not to say that it is not a valid system. It may be that it is not a system that appeals to you. I don't know if you have read the book but I have, a couple of times. I am not sure if my building will incorporate his methods or not, I am not far enough along in that regard to make any determination but he has got me thinking that there are methods that can be applied to get a consistent result once you have found the sound you are looking for in your instruments. I think the deflection testing aspects he talks about are something I will be experimenting with. Roger has been a great inspiration to a lot of instrument makers over many years. He has published a lot of works and invested a lot of time to documenting his findings in the world of Luthiery, for us all to share. I will further disclose that he and I have had a great business relationship for quite a long time and that he has also been very available to discuss technical issues with me anytime I have called....even while he was on the road to a Bluegrass Festival one time!

Kind Regards

Shane

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Canada

Roger is one heck of a smart guy... and a very helpful person as well...

I know he was a consultant to Gibson for quite a while, and worked hard to try to get them back into the Acoustic Instrument business....

My comments were aimed specifically at using "The Art of Tap Tuning" book only as written....
I have a copy and have read it and watched the video several times... I don't have any of his other works, though. It sounds like maybe his Luthiers Handbook contains more information than the Amazon.com blurb indicates!

Here's where I got hung up in the "Art of Tap Tuning".... If you start with a particular soundboard thickness (Not less than 0.115", though)... Then tune each individual brace to specific open octave frequencies... Does it ensure your braced top "System" on the guitar behaves in some predictable way...

Thanks

John

I have both of the books (and of course MANY others) and have read through them. I have also read David Hurds book, Left Brain Lutherie, and a lot of articles in the Big Red Books 1 through 5, and Bagdonovich and Cumpiano/Natelson, and Kinkead and Courtnal a whole host of others. What I have learned most is that I need to stop reading and get building and then following that what I have learned is that most of these guys have a system for getting the sound they want. Guys like Siminoff and Hurd have spent a lot of time trying to quantify, qualify and describe component parts of the process right through to the coupled system as a means to get repeatability, other makers I have found have learned more intuitive processes that have to do with their senses and are difficult to verbalize but it remains a system non the less.

What is interesting is that Ted has asked for some comments from those that have employed Siminoff's techniques wholistically and has not yet got a response from someone who has. But I think you will find few makers that do do all of their work the same as another maker. But they will certainly review what others are doing and that will have an impact on how they move forward with their work. This is evidenced by the large volume of literature that has been and continues to be written on all aspects of guitar making. But as has been eluded to in the Somoygi thread, his new books do not offer the majic recipe but appear to offer a proposed process for evaluating what you are looking for and what you should consider to get you there. And at the end of the day, that is likely what all of these books do. They tell how the other discovered aspects that have helped them become consistent and have shared those thoughts with us through their books. The ideas are different, yet all relevent as they are working for the author at the very least and likely aspects are working for any number of other people.

Roger's two books, the Art of Tap Tuning and Luthiers Handbook, both discuss that one of the final adjustments required is the size of the appature (the soundhole), most eveywhere else you read, espcially for steel strings, is to make the hole 4 inches (or there abouts). So Roger's system suggests an adjustment protocal that is not readily discussed in other texts I have read (although Al Carruth has discussed it in the past).

Anyway, I think we are on the same page here and I hope this discussion is helpful to Ted, in light of the lack of feedback on his original question.

Thanks John

Shane

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Canada

Maybe you can invite Roger to participate in this thread, it seems that some folks here have put considerable effort into studying his techniques and they have some great questions. He might really welcome the chance to clear up any misconceptions folks have about his technique.

Thanks for the explanation tcwave.

John

I did and he had dropped in to look. He thinks that the discussion is "healthy" and worthwhile. He does not feel that any of his propositions have been mistated. He further indicated that he felt the discussion "was a good exercise". He runs a very full business and you can see how entering into these types of threads could eat up a ton of time! He has written his views on the topics in the books.

Thanks

Shane

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Canada

Hi Guys,

I appreciate all the feedback and discussion. I hope it continues on this subject and it still would be great to hear from someone who is passoniate about tap tuning. I understand there are many who aren't . Like a few of the others have stated, my interst is not on the merit of tap tuning or not, it's on hearing first hand information, tips and feedback from those that do.

Interstingly enough, I bought my 3 year old son a pair of drumsticks yesterday and the label said, "All Vater sticks are tone & weight matched by computer analysis". I am really looking forward to utlizing Siminoff's techniques along with a few others and will report back over time with my progress/observations.

Best regards,
Ted