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Steve Kinnaird
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:46 am 
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Perhaps discussed before...perhaps not?
Anyway, what are your thoughts on using customer-supplied wood?
Particularly regarding price:
Do you offer a discount to the base price of the instrument if the wood is supplied to you by the customer (including dealers)?
Is there a position that is starting to gel in our industry?

Thoughts? Opinions?

TIA,

Steve

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LanceK
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:07 am 
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Hi Steve
hey it was great to see you in Cali!

I have a customer supplied set im using now. What I do is offer no discount, but no up charge if its fancy wood, just my base price. I also take
no responsibility if the wood cracks or fails during the build. I also do not offer a warranty.
Lastly I insist on storing the wood in my shop for at least a year before working it.

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Cal Maier
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:11 am 
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I've just delivered a custom order to a customer made from wood that he supplied. He didn't supply everything, but he supplied the b & s, f.bd, bridge, and hd. plate. This was wood that he purchased about 30 years ago with aspirations of making himself a guitar one day. I discounted the price of the wood that he supplied, from the price.

He has just ordered two more guitars. bliss It was definitely worth using some of his wood.

Cal

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Tim McKnight
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:20 am 
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Hi Steve,

Glad you made it home safely. I have done it only once and I really try to discourage it but I did basically the same as Lance. Warranty is void, store wood for minimum of 1 year (longer if it is >8%MC) and no discounts from base price.

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Tom West
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:22 am 
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Steve: The first thing that comes to mind is that in your case it will still be Steve's name that is on that guitar.How the guitar looks and sounds depends partially on the selection of the wood.The second thing is that there is a possibility of something happening during construction such as side breakage which may leave a customer to be very disappointed.I think you have to be willing to give up a certain amount of control and comfort in order to make this work.Perhaps rather then a discount an up charge might be in order. Take care.
Tom.

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Steve Kinnaird
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:47 am 
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Hey guys, thanks for the replies!
Lance, it was great meeting you at H'burg. I've gone through my pics of the show (precious few--arrgh!) and your mug is one of the few I've got.
My thoughts are quite like yours, except that like Filippo suggests, I'd probably offer a warranty on the wood. But no discounts. I've got a customer right now wanting just such a discount. But Cal's got me thinking....

Cal, your generosity paid off in spades, didn't it?

Tim, it was great meeting you as well. We visited the redwoods after the show, as well as Hiway 1...southbound. So It IS good to be home safely!

Tom, points taken. In this case the wood is beautiful, and appears as sound as any other wood in our shop. The breakage scenario is a real possibility. Your thought of an upcharge, though probably not possible in my case, will be a bargaining chip in favor--at least--of NO discounts. You and Cal need to arm wrestle this thing out.

Filippo, your input as a customer is valuable. Thanks for that viewpoint.

Again, thanks guys. Any other thoughts that can be shared would be most welcome.

Steve

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Terence Kennedy
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:09 pm 
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Very timely as this just happened to me and I'm in the same boat. This guy has some Koa that looks nice and has been stickered for 6-7 years. I sanded it down and it should work. I was going to discount the price of a low grade EIRW back and sides but now I'm rethinking. I think if I determine it is OK to build with I'll honor the warranty.
He is a very nice guy and I'm actually kind of excited about the project as I have not built with Koa before. Thanks for the insight guys.
Terry

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woody b
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:18 pm 
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I've got a set of Honduran Rosewood waiting for the year to pass right now. I didn't offer any discount over my base price. I'm not crazy about it, but it's a good looking set of wood. If the wood didn't look, flex and tap good I wouldn't do it. My biggest reservation is if I screw something up. An upcharge for "exotic" wood includes the ri$k factor for using such expen$ive wood. I hope that made sense.

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Edward Taylor
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm 
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Although I cannot comment from a builders standpoint I can comment from a customers standpoint. Just before I decided to get into guitar building I was in the market for a hand-made. I found it very frustrating the markups everywhere for different materials that exceeds the actual increase in cost of the materials. I can understand an increase like this for highly figured woods that pose a serious risk of failure and would be a cost to the luthier, however up-charging something like an Adi top for more than what the actual increase in cost in the materials is just did not make sense to me, and was a huge turn off in buying a hand-made.
I think customers should be able to supply their own materials in most cases. Its up to the builder to determine if its up to their standards. If it does not meet their standards it should not be used, but I cannot see using customer supplied materials that meets the builders standards has any bearing on voiding the warranty.
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Mike Dotson
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:03 pm 
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I've only done it once and on an electric. In this case the customer wanted a one-piece koa body and was in Hawaii at the time so he picked out his own piece and shipped it to me. When I cut it out I found a hidden knot that *barely* missed one of the edges and several other punky areas. Very lucky. In the future I'd really rather supply it myself, that way if there's a flaw or mishap it's on me and I don't have any splainin' to do.
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Alexandru Marian
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:23 pm 
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One thing is that stocking expensive wood is an expensive investment. I sort of naturally feel inclined to markup just to make some profit out of the tied-up money, if that makes sense.


On topic, I have to sort of build with customer's wood right now. It actually is my own frigging wood, a gorgeous rosewood set, quartersawn, also my favorite color, received a couple weeks ago. I wanted to stash it for a couple years and build some sort of kick-ass personal "anniversary" guitar from it, my 20th for example. I just started building a pair of guitars for a friend. He saw the new set and insists I should build the second guitar with it instead of what we initially had in plan, which will probably be in 2-3 months from now. So I have to go back and forth with a bunch of phone calls trying to convince him that it will crack, and that "no, you can't have my darn anniversary wood" and so on. So far it seems he will win :(

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Edward Taylor
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Those are some very good points Filippo, and now as a novice builder I can see the validity to all of those points. However as a buyer with no knowledge of what really goes on behind the scenes, it was a huge turn-off and probably the reason I am here talking to yea on this forum. :)
Keep in mind too that if I was a professional of some sort and not a poor student, I probably would of had no problems at all with the up-charges.
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Burton LeGeyt
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:42 pm 
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It has come up for me and it was as turn off to the customer when I said I would store his wood but I wouldn't be able to tell him if I would use it for months, until I saw how it reacted in my shop. I can understand totally why that could be seen as a pain too, but I need to be sure. There is a difference too between a warranty on workmanship and a warranty on the wood used. They do meet in some places, obviously, but I won't warranty the wood if I didn't stock it myself. Part of that is business, some of the markup is in there to safeguard against warranty, but some is just to deter outside wood. Having said that, I would probably just fix the crack etc.. for free but I would like to be able to charge for it just in case.

Edward and Fillipo, you both make good points. I can totally see how a customer would feel turned off by some of the crazy upcharges but Fillipo you gave a great explanation into the reasons why.

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Steve Kinnaird
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:33 pm 
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Good points all, and I sincerely appreciate the discussion.
As I ponder this, it seems that holding firm on one's base price could be a small form of insurance.
If I crack someone's one-of-a-kind Brazilian rosewood, then suddenly I have to find more, somehow. And then pay for it. (And then, try not to break the 2nd set.)
Now, I could discount the 75 bucks typically spent for Indian, or keep it as aforementioned insurance. Which won't cover Brazilian replacement costs, I know, but enough of those builds will help offset the very possible tragedy should it occur.

Filippo, I appreciate your insights into the realities of pricing.

Steve

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John How
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:07 am 
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I wouldn't offer any discount. How much do you make on a baseline set of wood anyway, Not much I think.

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Ken Franklin
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:18 am 
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I'm in the no discount camp. I had a customer who wanted to provide the back and sides. After his foot was in the door he wanted to provide everything else almost and dictate design features. I finally sent his wood and deposit back and decided I would be more careful upfront before I entered into any such deal again. I now have a smaller but nonrefundable deposit too.

Nice meeting you at Healdsburg, Steve.

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Frank Cousins
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:10 am 
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Can only really comment from a customers perspective - I enquired about exactly thi option to Patrick James Eggle a while back if he would build using supplied wood (A nice Cocobolo set) - I think his response was the fairest one. Yes he would, but only after careful review of the supplied material to ensure it was of sufficient quality to maintain his standards given the name on the headstock and to ensure it met with the Quality control to provide the standard warranty. Which I think was fair enough. In addition he would want to store the wood for the appropriate time. Finally, there was no discount offered against the base price, but in most cases I think it would be possible to negotiate a little upgrade etc over standard spec ... ;) (Sadly, I did not get to that part as money was needed for the house and as I already had two of his guitars my good lady would surely have tfelt this was a little self indulgent :D )

Given my experience, I would be happy with this for B+S sets, but leave top selection to the pros (I still get advice on tops from a pro friend and will do for as long as possible!) becuase one of the things you are paying for is that experience in selection of the best quality materials at your price point so why waste that? For me, the nbenefit in this is that you can as a customer discuss the selection and LEARN from the choices made, especially if also an amateur builder.
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JJ Donohue
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:50 am 
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Steve...good topic to raise and so far has been interesting in several ways. While some builders might look at customer-supplied wood as an uncomfortable situation to be avoided, others find ways to deal with the situation.

If one wants to discourage the use of customer-supplied wood, just do the following:
1) Declare that there will be no discount.
2) Declare that there will be no warranty.
3) Try to give the potential customer the sense that you're too busy with other builds to consider this request.

If one wishes to embrace more customer involvement, do this:
1) Offer a free upgrade in another area. The customer will surely expect some concession.
2) Maintain the warranty.
3) Keep positive and welcoming body language through all of the customer's recommendations.
4) Try to be objective and stand for quality/performance issues that the customer will intuitively understand and embrace.

The issues to me that make the most sense relate to evaluating the wood as carefully as you would if you were buying it on your own for inclusion into your stash. If you would not have bought it for stability reasons, then it's a good time to refuse the build. Once accepted then it is certainly reasonable to insist on allowing it to acclimate to shop conditions for 6-12 months. After that, if anything happens, it's the builder's responsibility.

The real key is to only refuse the job if you firmly believe that the wood is not up to your standards. I believe the customer will accept that far better than if he were made to feel punished for even making such a suggestion.

A recent client asked if he could design his own bridge. I said, "Of course...as long as it was truly unique (and I had final design approval) and as long as it fit within my bridge mass requirements"... which it passed on both counts. While he understood that there would be an upcharge since I needed to carve prototypes and make new jigs, he is now the proud owner of a guitar which has some of his design creativity included. Incidentally, he has ordered 2 more guitars...so that's why I'm now convinced that certain personalities respond better if you allow them to be inspired by the experience. So I guess the personality and passion and motivation of each customer should be taken into consideration as well.

Knowing you as we all do, Steve, you're going to make the customer understand the important stuff and be pleased with your decision. Let us know how it goes, Bro!

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TonyKarol
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:34 am 
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I always like to have a big factory price list kicking around .. just picked up the new Martin one yesterday at the Canadian version of NAMM (for instance, 000-28 EC sunburst iRW, 4599 ... in mad rw, 7000, list prices) ..... R Taylor is another good one ...

Show these to your clients when they think that 5-600 is too much an upgrade for mad rw, or the same for koa. R Taylor upcharges almost 3K for an all koa guitar .. the upcharge on adi is pretty steep as well .... more than most of us ask.

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Brock Poling
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:47 am 
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Filippo Morelli wrote:
Ed,
I guess my being an amateur builder (and more of a customer), may I offer a counterpoint? I agree that figured woods are problematic, but for other woods of value let's consider a few things -
a) luthier pays a premium for this wood. Sitka Spruce of very high quality can be $50. An Adirondack Spruce top of very high quality can be $200 and up. Risk of getting the right thing is 4x the cost of sitka. That's going to cost us as the buyer. Furthermore the luthier has 4x $$$ tied up in that top, often for many years (we do want our luthiers building for well seasoned stock that has been in their shop for years). Luthiers don't make a ton of money. I don't know any that have lines of credit with their bank, as a business. So tying up funds (which are short in supply) is expensive for a luthier.
b) Run of the mill EIR is as simple as pick up the phone and order up however many sets you desire. Specialty woods are purchased as one-offs, often require hunting the stuff down, knowing the right people, et cetera.
c) Consider good quality Brazilian Rosewood (not what's on eBay) ... often a $1500 or even $2000 upcharge by a luthier. Good stuff starts at $750 and up on the open market. Consider that it is prone to cracking (means downstream luthier warranty repair at his cost) ... you can see where the price goes up as a percentage of base. It's also known to split during construction.
d) While I don't offer this as justification, but merely as market observation, every product in the world I can think of has upcharge for the premium models - that is, the product has a greater percentage of profit as it goes premium. Cars, watches, golf clubs, ad nauseum. A BMW 3 series has nowhere near the % profit margin for BMW as their 7 series, for example. The moment we ask for double tops, special rosettes, top woods, back woods, hemispherical frets, cutaways, et cetera, the price tends to go up.

One final comment I'd make, as a non-luthier. Many of the luthiers I know have many, many years of experience invested in their craft, at least $20-30k in facilities (location/equipment/tools) and often an equal amount of $$$ tied up in wood. This is to make 12-15 guitars per year, on average. Instruments sell for, say $4k on average. That's $60k gross and how much of that is cost? The net may hit $30-40k depending on what's going on. I know plumbers that make more money than that in 4 months. Upcharge on speciality items is one of the few ways that luthiers can increase their paltry earnings and still build instruments by hand, one by one, for their clients.

Just some alternative thoughts ...


Filippo



I think you have an excellent bead on the situation. I would like to add one more consideration.

The scarcity of wood. In addition to all of the other things we have to at least consider the replacement cost involved with trying to restock the wood we have taken from the stash. We all know good old growth quartersawn BRW is hard to come by, and a lot of the tonewood quality is slipping so the sets we are using are going to be harder and more expensive to replace. So we need to factor a portion of this into the equation. And with ultra rare woods like LS redwood, sets of the TREE etc, they simply won't be replacable, so you need to make sure and factor that into the mix as well.

I will build with customer wood, but as with Lance and Tim:

I offer no discount off the base price
I require the wood be inspected and stored in my shop until I build with it
If the wood breaks during construction the customer either replaces it or takes the upcharge to use my wood (but I have only EVER broke one side)
and the material side of the warranty is limited

I think this is a fair counter balance for customers, they can save the upcharge money, but they have to be willing to share in the risk.

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Frank Cousins
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:20 am 
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The upcharge on Rio is understandable when looking at most independent builders prices, although even as a customer, I think its a shame the market does not support a PROPER price for a standard spec in most cases - when you think of the time and skill required to build a decent instrument by hand even from relatively inexpensive tonewoods - that way the upcharge for more expensive tonewoods would be not such a huge gap?

I think if you up charge up to $2000 for Rio that's fair, but when I see some prices as much as $4000-$6000 for flat sawn stump wood that can be bought for $300-$500 or less it does seem excessive despite the costs of sourcing and storing.. I think that's why customers as with many other areas are doing more research and trying to understand more about the process and costs so that they many may see this as slightly over the top?

For what its worth, As I mentioned I would like to see luthiers get a decent price for the skill first and foremost - $6000-$10,000 as a base price for an instrument would be fair based on the skill and reputation of the builder, but the market does not sustain that for all but a few - if paid a decent price, then we would probably see amore reasonable premium on exotics?
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Frank Cousins
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:23 am 
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Brock Poling wrote:
I think this is a fair counter balance for customers, they can save the upcharge money, but they have to be willing to share in the risk.


Think that is pretty reasonable and fair on both parties.
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Steve Kinnaird
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:12 am 
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Thank you again, gentlemen!
Good discussion. In my case, I have built several guitars with customer wood, and have not discounted the base price, and the process has been a pleasant/creative one.
But the most recent customer... well, he's probably got a case of recession blues, and...
Guess this is another area to hammer out a *necessary* policy.
I DO like the idea of giving one free upgrade (within reason) as an offset. But again, this will take some pondering.
Several posts indicate "reading" the customer, and that is such an important component, isn't it?

Thanks guys!

Steve

P.S.--John, it was great meeting you too.

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John Mayes
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:12 am 
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The way I always handle this is to use the wood if it is good enough, and charge the normal upcharge less what my normal cost of the wood is. Some customers feel that if they supply the wood no upcharge should apply, but of course the upcharge is not just for the cost of the wood, but working, warranty ect. as well as we need to make a profit too, which some customers do not like to hear, but it's the facts. I find most customers do understand this though and they are fine with it. I'll also request the wood be in my shop for at least 8 months.

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TonyKarol
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:39 pm 
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Sheldon Schwartz works the same way .. the upcharge still applies ...

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