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Filippo, guess I'm just an "old timey" guy. When I decided to return to guitar building, I decided to make Old Time instruments, and got set up for dovetails. I really don't have anything against anyone using M&T, and who knows, I won't say I'll never use it, but for now, I'll use the dovetail. It's what I've got.

I agree with Hans. If you are selling a classic steel string, you are selling more than just a look. Using a bolt on neck on a guitar like Hans makes them would be like putting a electronic clock inside what looks like a mechanical grandfather clock; it might be "better" in some ways, but it just wouldn't be right.

As to mass produced instruments, I'm not so sure dovetails are so much slower to do if you are set of for it properly. There are lots of low end instruments out there with dovetail neck joints. Not all are that precise, of course...

FWIW, I use bolt-ons.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

OK OK I didn't mean to start a ruckus,
I know only to well many here use M&T having drooled
over your construction photos and I think Michael is spot on when he said
"My opinion someone that would make the statement in your original post does not have much lutherie experiance."
Any top o' their game makers I can mention to the guilty party?.
I am going to build a SS and will be using the bolted neck method, my main reason is to do with finishing using FP (first time) and from what I have gleaned from these pages I think I would make a better job of it.
I just need a good drawing, maybe I'll get the OLF / StuMac MJ or speak nicely to ColinS who's neck joint I admire.,
what da ya think.
regards Geordie

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some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

I love reading these debates! I will say that one of the advantages I feel with being a realitive newcomer is that I don't feel bound by tradition.

Heck, I don't use HHG or dovetails!

For what it's worth, I'm struggling over what that means.

I understand the notion of "this is the way it was done". But I'm trained by my scientific upbringing to thing that there is probably some advantage to methodologies that have evolved in response to various perceived needs arising from prior use?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Kevin Ryan
Dana Bourgeois

And a bunch of guys I probably can't stick names on right now.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Interesting topic. Seems the consensus is that tonally and structurally no real difference but both methods have other pros and cons... So is there a right or wrong? I think its like anything else with the build, choice of woods, size, geometry etc, that if building to a very defined tradition, it seems right to extend this to the bits you cant see... as with everything else, technology has meant that new methods can be used and are equally as good and have other advantages - and in some cases are 'easier' to do, especially if new to working with wood.

As someone new to the craft, and for both the first two have used M+T but glued, (No Bolts) (may fall apart some day who knows) - I would love to have the skill to be able to make a Dovetail that is so good no glue is required (in theory) purely for the knowldge that I could do it! With that in mind, when time allows, I am going to spend a silly amount of time with off cuts, a decent saw and a finely honed chisel and practice, practice, practice... I will still happily use M+T joints, because not being 18 any more means I dont want to stop building guitars until I master the Dovetail...

Maybe the real issue is that its seen as a 'short cut' ? - It does mean that you can build a guitar without the skill of crafting a dovetail, but I dont think it diminishes the overall craft one bit - there are simply so many over factors that distinguish what us newbies can build (a good guitar), from those craftsman that can consistently build GREAT guitars - and its not all in the neck joint! - But the 'simpler' solution does mean more folk can get a reasonable result from the outset with time and patience and like anything, the more folk that take the plunge the better - its simply too much fun!

This topic seems to have some very spirited debate. When it comes down to it , you use what you want . Also look at the skill level of the builder. I have used M&T but my preference is Dovetails. When you look at the vintage market , you don't see very many M&T's on the higher price scale. This isn't saying that they won't get there and the fact is Dovetails have been used a long time . M&T , Butt joints , and Doweled were used on many lower end guitars first and that kind of tainted those joints.
From an engineering point a dovetail ( martin style ) is stronger than a M&T but in both cases the neck will be destroyed before the joint . We did this test in a lab at work . I can't remember the numbers but the glue shear on the M&T failed and the threaded insert pulled out. The dovetail joint , the block pulled apart , the neck tenon held. The numbers were significantly higher on the tail in shear and rotational.
Adjustable neck joints were around also for a long time . I don't think we are doing many things new as these techniques have been around at least 100 years. Martin had an adjustable neck before 1900 , I have seen M&T's on guitars as early as 1900. In 1865 there were 3500 registered luthiers.
I agree that in most cases , it is a natural selection to the best methods that last . Keep using your joints that you like. It shouldn't matter. I have taken many guitar joints apart and I have found some interesting things shoved in the block for shims.
I build to what my customer wants , and most want dovetails , at least my clientele .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

John Hall and I have discussed this topic several times, and I think the general consensus is: once the neck joint is done, there is no detectable difference in the tone of a guitar.

I have used both dove tails and M&T joints, and both work fine. I prefer dove tails because of the elegant simplicity of the joint. No other joint has the same or smaller parts count, 2 pieces of wood. Anything else is more complicated and slightly heavier.

Here's some advice for the armatures like me:
If you are intimidated by dove tail joints (believe me, I was too), get with someone for a couple of hours like John Hall who has mastered the process of fitting a dove tail. It is VERY difficult to clearly describe this is writing, but it's a real epiphany to see it done in person. If you are in this hobby for the long run, it's well worth the travel expense and a couple hours of John's shop rate for the lesson.

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If you can't do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly.

I use the threaded inserts and they seem to work just fine. However, if I could cut and SET a dovetail just as easily, that is what I would do. The primary reason is that almost every customer would be happy with a dovetail but some customers would not be happy with a bolt on. If you use the dovetail, you have no explaining to do.

The reason I emphasized the SET in my previous paragraph is because It seem to take me several tries to get the proper neck set. I seem to get a lot of neck deflection when I string up the guitar. I can't imagine doing an iterative approach with a glued in dovetail. I'd also like to find out why I get so much deflection but that is another topic.

I have talked to several , and most say noooooooo , however in my first and only attempt i found it to be quite helpfull and it didnt affect sound at all. I am however a novice. What i believe is happening alot is that in last 70 yrs or so things havent changed as much in some areas . people get the " it cant be done any other way" mentality.

I had one person look at my Mandolin and say " this isnt a Mandolin" because it didnt look like a F or A model and the neck was wider for easier chording . He could play it no prob. it sounded good and sounded like a Mando but it couldnt possibly be one cuse it didnt "look" right

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Most of my customers don't care. If they don't care I use a Dovetail. I've had a couple who specified Dovetails, and one who specified a M&T bolt on. There's way to much information on the internet. IMHO some people are too specific in what they want. I believe the outside( appearence) is theirs to design, and the inside is mine, with certain overlaps due to the tone they want. I had one guy who wanted me to use Titebond instead of HHG. Titebond is fine, but I don't even have any in my shop. If I were to win the lottery ( I won't because I don't buy tickets) I'd get all of you to make guitars for me, and I'd let you use whatever neck attachement (and glue) you want to use. I wouldn't even ask.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

Dovetail, of course I started by building a Martin HD 28 Kit and was it ever fun to set that neck! Now I can do them in short order. Both make great guitars, it's on down the road where others will cuss us....

Also, you can have the 14th fret hump using dovetails for sure so it's also an immediate problem if not addressed. Live and learn.

Taylor has the most trouble-free neck joint I know of anywhere. Bolting both the heel and the tongue. Their steel inserts really stiffen things up too, and running the neck onto the body join and their shimming methods, well it is a factory system that works.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

We do need to establish a difference between a Mortise and Tenon or a true Bolt on . A mortise and tenon will require glue with the joint . Alas the true bolt on is a dry joint.
In all I feel that the neck joint is where a builders true ability to make a good fit and finish will show. This is one of the few joints at is totally visible.
As for the 14th fret hump , that can happen on any neck joint short of the true bolt on. I have seen them on mortise and tenon joints and dovetails. A builder should learn to control this by the 3rd guitar he builds.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

First of all - I apologize in advance for what is about to come

If you have established a very well fitting dovetail - is there any reason apart from tradition to not glue it on, but to bolt it on?

Wouldn't a bolt-on dovetail with a mortise/tenon for the fingerboard extension be ? You have a dovetail joint which is easy to take apart for neck resets.

I don't know from Jack, but it seems to me that bolting a dovetail would be exactly the opposite to what the dovetail is designed to do. It would pull the neck away from the joint in the neck block, and would reduce it's effectiveness.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

waddy is correct , pulling with a bolt actually will weaken the dovetail .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Probably would be useful to differentiate adjustable bolt-ons from glued-down bolt-ons. Adjustable necks should not have any possibility of a 14th fret hump, because by design, the fingerboard extension needs to not be connected to the soundboard. (I'm not talking about the Taylor method, which to me is not really an "adjustable" neck but a neck joint "designed for rapid disassembly and re-shimming.") Adjustable necks will have no hump on the first guitar made and the last guitar built, as well as over the entire lifespan of each guitar.


Variations, Not counting the shape of the heel:

• dovetail
• mortise and tenon, glued tenon (with or without bolts), glued fingerboard extension
• mortise and tenon, unglued tenon bolted on, glued fingerboard extension
• mortise and tenon, unglued tenon bolted on, unglued fingerboard extension bolted on
• mortise and tenon, unglued tenon bolted on, unglued fingerboard extension floating (this could be adjustable)
• butt joint, glued bolted on, glued fingerboard extension
• butt joint, glued bolted on, bolted on fingerboard extension
• butt joint, unglued bolted on, bolted on fingerboard extension
• butt joint, unglued bolted on, unglued fingerboard extension floating (this could be adjustable)
• Howe-Orme (a la Rick Turner) where the neck heel also floats away from the rims, on hardware
• probably some others I didn't think of

If I (the buyer) order a faithful reproduction of a 1939 Larson, that means I want a dovetail and I (the buyer) assume the onus of the probable/eventual neck reset.

If I am a buyer in 2009 asking my luthier what the best neck joint is for playability and longevity, then I don't care if the luthier is more adept at dovetails or mortise and tenons - I want an honest straight answer, and the luthier should be ready to provide the Taylor method at the absolute minimum, or better yet a fully "on-the-fly" adjustable neck. As a luthier, I should be trying to divorce the ego from this and make a recommendation from an engineering standpoint, because in this case, my buyer wants playability and longevity built-in.

This is not to say that all things traditional are inferior engineering-wise, nor that the current evolution of materials and methods always surpasses tradition. A good example of this is Hot Hide Glue (hehehehehe, I added glue to an already hot topic!) I think it could easily be argued to the player in 2009 that wants a custom instrument built and wants repairability added to the list of critical attributes for his/her new guitar, that HHG may well be the prime choice of glue to use. You could throw French polish (shellac) in the same argument, not because it is the toughest finish, but because the player places repairability as an attribute near the top of his/her list.

I should slightly modify my statement that I made about me using dovetails, and say that because I have no plans to copy/reproduce any historical guitars, I have no plans to use dovetails. But, those who want to make reproduction instruments had better learn dovetails and learn them well. As a bonus to your buyers, those same luthiers should study and understand the dovetail / neck block / fingerboard extension / upper transverse brace / rims relationships and engineering, and know how to provide a dovetail neck without a 14th fret hump and that will have a reasonable chance of maintaining the joint integrity and overall instrument geometry for many years before a neck reset is called for.


Don't you mean "invisible", John? Well, I guess you can see the bolt heads on bolted neck joints. Neck heel cheeks meeting rims is totally visible. Maybe this is where you mean?

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

We got so involved in the discussion, we forgot to answer Geordie's last question!

Geordie,

The OLF plans from Stew-Mac are great. MDP did a wonderful job when he designed these.
Colins neck joint is very nice indeed. If you do a search for "neck joint" with him as the author, you can see all the info it takes to build the neck and block.

Steve

I've done it. To keep the bolt from pulling the dovetail apart I fit a shim between the end of the dovetail tenon and the mortise in the body to make it tight. I don't make the bolt tight either. I put a spot of white glue on the bolt to keep it from loosening, and I only tighten it with the short end of an allen wrench. I haven't figured out how to use a bolt to pull downward yet. I also bolt down the FB extension. My personal guitar is made like this, but there's no bolt in the dovetail. The FB extension is bolted down, but that's it. No glue or bolt in the Dovetail. It's a couple years old but I'm afraid of humidity issues if I "sent" them out like this.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

hey all
we seem to be enjoying this one.
Steven thanks, I had a vague recollection of having seen Colins technique hence my comment but I'll find it easily now.
Dennis your last post just made me dizzy - to much information
regards
Geordie

_________________
some tunes on acoustic and guitar synth.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeordieAdams
http://www.myspace.com/geordieadams

Geordie, you're right, I should have made it as a PowerPoint presentation, and then I could sell copies as a sleeping aid.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

When I said that the heel is visible , the mating surfaces of this are very visible and you want the neck to look as though it is growing out of the guitar , voids and fill at this area make the appearance of an ill fitting attempt. So yes you want the visible joint to appear invisible.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Use just four two inch wooden pegs instead of the nails, I'll bet if you had to actually chisel the dove tail instead of routing you would not like them so much. You have to know what you are doing when chiseling a dove tail, you can shut your eyes and do a tenon! You can't beat good cabinet joinery cutting with a Japanese saw, the precision is uncomparable.
I use tenon and bolt on, once you heat and disconnect the short piece of fingerboard the neck comes right off. You have of course taken the bolts out!

Did anyone see the prevues of the up coming "Shark Tank"? A guy put a hinge on the fingerboard of an acoustic guitar so the neck could be folded forward across the guitar and be carried or packed easier. I couldn't believe it when I caught the five second glimpse.
cheers

That would be Harvey Leach's "Voyage Air", right?

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia