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Enough about neck joints, Let's talk about glue

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Variety, variety, every day it's the same old thing... variety.

Every luthier worth his sawdust ought to have a bolt-on, and a glue-on, in his bag of joints.
Of course, it is good to specialize, without a doubt you have a preference. But you should be "well rounded" in your experience.

All my joints are well rounded. I'm working on it!

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I agree totally with Todd Stocks observation. Of all the guitars I get to see , most people have not mastered the fit and finish. Dovetails do take a higher degree to fit properly but I am not going to say it is a superior joint , just that this is my opinion. When looking at guitar values , historically Dovetails do show a higher value but again they have been around much longer. A good dovetail will support the load of a tuned guitar without using glue. Once you can do that you can say you can do dovetails.
Having read so many topics on setting necks it is obvious many have an issue with them. As a kit supplier I often hear I would prefer bolt on as they are easier to set. So I do think most people gravitate to them for that reason . It doesn't make a bolt on an inferior joint , as a neck joint , once frozen by glue or mechanical means should be designed to carry the load it was designed for . As for sound , it isn't just a neck joint that makes a guitar , it is the synergy of the parts and builders skills and understanding that will make the guitar .
I was at a few shows including ASIA this year. Of all the builders that brought guitars I would say less than half hit the fit and finish and sound. I see some that look perfect and are dead as a nail others that look very rough but sound well. I like the quote from a builder friend Ton Buck , and it goes like this . " Building a guitar looks hard , but it is harder than it looks . "
I am fortunate that I am doing this professionally now and it was not easy but it was worth it. It is good to disagree if we can do it without getting disagreeable .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Ringed shank nails, of course.Or double headed for easier resets.MT

I use a slip on neck that is held on by string tension. The neck would fall off if you took the string off.

I have done one with a single M&T, two more with the double M&T as described by John Mayes.

To me, the part of the joint you can't see is purely functional. The builder has to pick a method and practice it to get a good, solid joint. The art is in getting the part you can see (where the heel meets the body) to be perfect.

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Neck joints - right up there with a good glue thread!

After doing a mortise and tenon, adjustable neck, "stiletto" heel on a compound cutaway on my first guitar, I find it amusing if someone believes that dovetails are more difficult or challenging.

After doing an adjustable neck on my first guitar, I am convinced that I will never build using a dovetail. When I hear some of the most experienced and knowledgeable repair guys in the industry use the word "inevitable" to describe the probability of a neck reset on fine handmade guitars, and after seeing and hearing the success that numerous builders are having with adjustable necks, I am amazed at luthiers who hold onto tradition that appears to me to be simply old technology that has been trumped by modern methods. I can see where it would be easy for players and collectors to hold onto tradition, immortalizing and deifying what was done in the past, but luthiers, in their "heart of hearts", have just got to know that adjustable necks are superior technology with no sonic downside. There is a list of attributes that every luthier strives for. Playability has to be near the top of the list, and longevity should be. Adjustable necks address both of those attributes in a way that dovetails cannot.

You guys that build with dovetails, don't worry, I still love ya', and I will be over here on the other side welcoming you into the light when you're ready.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I've used both, M&T in the distant past and now use dovetail. I just can't feature a M&T on a classic steel string guitar. Nothing wrong with them though.

Dennis,
Nicely said. I can't see ever doing a dove tail joint. I've made plenty of nice "cabinet" quality dove tail joints that I love to look at. Bi just can't see ever wanting my guitars to be steamed apart. Tradition? Not when there is a better way.

Adjustable? That's very nice - a step above. I've been looking into that, but because I can adjust a double M/T joint in less than 30 minutes, I just can't see the need.

A separate issue is the joint between the heel and the sides. There's no logical correlation between the workmanship of that joint and M/T vs dove tail. A sloppy fit there is something that displays either poor attention to detail, or lack of skill, but it is independent of the particular joint used.

Whatever you do - be fully convinced that it is the right thing for you and your client. For some clients, dove tail is the right thing, for others, M/T. If a client wants a dove tail, I just might refer him/her to one of you dove tail guys - that is only if I can't convince him to use a M/T joint.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

As a craftsman (or aspiring one), I want to know that I can properly cut and set a dovetail. Some customers believe that the dovetail is better. They're wrong but it is not a point worth arguing. It's their money and they should get what what they want. People believe a lot of things and it is impossible to dissuade them from some pretty screwy ideas.

Ask Al Carruth some time to tell you about the "tone ball" and its effect.

Either joint, done properly, is more than adequate for attaching the neck to the body. And the luthiers I know personally who use dovetails are jigged up to cut them, both pin and tail, with router bits. And they still have to fiddle with final attachment and fit.

As for sound transmission through that area, I will offer Harvey Leach's Voyage-Air guitars. Those have an M&T joint, PLUS the entire neck is cut through between the 13th and 14th fret for the hinge mechanism. They suffer no ill effects from that process and for their price point are very good sounding guitars. No one would have to apologize for playing one in any venue.

Considering the eventual need for a neck reset on any stringed instrument, I never felt that the injection of hot steamy water into an all wooden joint (glued dovetail) was the most efficacious process. At age 61, when getting my first colonoscopy, my suspicions were confirmed! And it didn't include the hot steamy water.

As for the joint being the most important in the guitar, I would beg to differ. The pull on the bridge to top joint is a pretty crucial area given the pull of strings on the glued surface. And of course brace joints, top and back to rim joints, bookmatch joints are all equally important. Bad work in any of these areas will negate the finest neck joint.

So...pick your modus operandi and do the best you can possibly do on ALL joint areas of your instrument.

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Hank Mauel

Factories did not start the bolt on M&T neck. and anyone that thinks DT is a stonger neck is not toally informed. I am wi Al on this one. I learned and am proficent in dovetail joints but use bolt on M&T in my work for the advantages it offer. and contray to popular opinion out side the lutherie community speed in assembly is not the main advantage. Anyone that has ever done a neck rest on a dovetail and one on a bolt on can understand one of the advantages of M&T bolt on neck joints. And then ther is the advantage of finishing seperatly and attaching with out glue joints squeeze out to worry with.

My opinion someone that would make the statement in your original post does not have much lutherie experiance. but that is my opinion. Don't take that wrog as dovetail is a fine joint and I am not knocking them at all. But most luthier, even those that are dedicated dovetail luthiers would not make that statement

Yes!
I think many people (buyers) look at that joint first and use it as a quick evaluation of the builders ability and attention to detail. In a very real sense it is a smart thing to do. If a joint that is difficult to make is well executed, it is a reasonable assumption that all the joints inside are well executed also. It is of course and assumption and may or may not be true, but it is a useful indicator. Builders that discount the importance of that joint are missing something very important.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Filippo, guess I'm just an "old timey" guy. When I decided to return to guitar building, I decided to make Old Time instruments, and got set up for dovetails. I really don't have anything against anyone using M&T, and who knows, I won't say I'll never use it, but for now, I'll use the dovetail. It's what I've got.

I agree with Hans. If you are selling a classic steel string, you are selling more than just a look. Using a bolt on neck on a guitar like Hans makes them would be like putting a electronic clock inside what looks like a mechanical grandfather clock; it might be "better" in some ways, but it just wouldn't be right.

As to mass produced instruments, I'm not so sure dovetails are so much slower to do if you are set of for it properly. There are lots of low end instruments out there with dovetail neck joints. Not all are that precise, of course...

FWIW, I use bolt-ons.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

OK OK I didn't mean to start a ruckus,
I know only to well many here use M&T having drooled
over your construction photos and I think Michael is spot on when he said
"My opinion someone that would make the statement in your original post does not have much lutherie experiance."
Any top o' their game makers I can mention to the guilty party?.
I am going to build a SS and will be using the bolted neck method, my main reason is to do with finishing using FP (first time) and from what I have gleaned from these pages I think I would make a better job of it.
I just need a good drawing, maybe I'll get the OLF / StuMac MJ or speak nicely to ColinS who's neck joint I admire.,
what da ya think.
regards Geordie

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I love reading these debates! I will say that one of the advantages I feel with being a realitive newcomer is that I don't feel bound by tradition.

Heck, I don't use HHG or dovetails!

For what it's worth, I'm struggling over what that means.

I understand the notion of "this is the way it was done". But I'm trained by my scientific upbringing to thing that there is probably some advantage to methodologies that have evolved in response to various perceived needs arising from prior use?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Kevin Ryan
Dana Bourgeois

And a bunch of guys I probably can't stick names on right now.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Interesting topic. Seems the consensus is that tonally and structurally no real difference but both methods have other pros and cons... So is there a right or wrong? I think its like anything else with the build, choice of woods, size, geometry etc, that if building to a very defined tradition, it seems right to extend this to the bits you cant see... as with everything else, technology has meant that new methods can be used and are equally as good and have other advantages - and in some cases are 'easier' to do, especially if new to working with wood.

As someone new to the craft, and for both the first two have used M+T but glued, (No Bolts) (may fall apart some day who knows) - I would love to have the skill to be able to make a Dovetail that is so good no glue is required (in theory) purely for the knowldge that I could do it! With that in mind, when time allows, I am going to spend a silly amount of time with off cuts, a decent saw and a finely honed chisel and practice, practice, practice... I will still happily use M+T joints, because not being 18 any more means I dont want to stop building guitars until I master the Dovetail...

Maybe the real issue is that its seen as a 'short cut' ? - It does mean that you can build a guitar without the skill of crafting a dovetail, but I dont think it diminishes the overall craft one bit - there are simply so many over factors that distinguish what us newbies can build (a good guitar), from those craftsman that can consistently build GREAT guitars - and its not all in the neck joint! - But the 'simpler' solution does mean more folk can get a reasonable result from the outset with time and patience and like anything, the more folk that take the plunge the better - its simply too much fun!

This topic seems to have some very spirited debate. When it comes down to it , you use what you want . Also look at the skill level of the builder. I have used M&T but my preference is Dovetails. When you look at the vintage market , you don't see very many M&T's on the higher price scale. This isn't saying that they won't get there and the fact is Dovetails have been used a long time . M&T , Butt joints , and Doweled were used on many lower end guitars first and that kind of tainted those joints.
From an engineering point a dovetail ( martin style ) is stronger than a M&T but in both cases the neck will be destroyed before the joint . We did this test in a lab at work . I can't remember the numbers but the glue shear on the M&T failed and the threaded insert pulled out. The dovetail joint , the block pulled apart , the neck tenon held. The numbers were significantly higher on the tail in shear and rotational.
Adjustable neck joints were around also for a long time . I don't think we are doing many things new as these techniques have been around at least 100 years. Martin had an adjustable neck before 1900 , I have seen M&T's on guitars as early as 1900. In 1865 there were 3500 registered luthiers.
I agree that in most cases , it is a natural selection to the best methods that last . Keep using your joints that you like. It shouldn't matter. I have taken many guitar joints apart and I have found some interesting things shoved in the block for shims.
I build to what my customer wants , and most want dovetails , at least my clientele .

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

John Hall and I have discussed this topic several times, and I think the general consensus is: once the neck joint is done, there is no detectable difference in the tone of a guitar.

I have used both dove tails and M&T joints, and both work fine. I prefer dove tails because of the elegant simplicity of the joint. No other joint has the same or smaller parts count, 2 pieces of wood. Anything else is more complicated and slightly heavier.

Here's some advice for the armatures like me:
If you are intimidated by dove tail joints (believe me, I was too), get with someone for a couple of hours like John Hall who has mastered the process of fitting a dove tail. It is VERY difficult to clearly describe this is writing, but it's a real epiphany to see it done in person. If you are in this hobby for the long run, it's well worth the travel expense and a couple hours of John's shop rate for the lesson.

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I use the threaded inserts and they seem to work just fine. However, if I could cut and SET a dovetail just as easily, that is what I would do. The primary reason is that almost every customer would be happy with a dovetail but some customers would not be happy with a bolt on. If you use the dovetail, you have no explaining to do.

The reason I emphasized the SET in my previous paragraph is because It seem to take me several tries to get the proper neck set. I seem to get a lot of neck deflection when I string up the guitar. I can't imagine doing an iterative approach with a glued in dovetail. I'd also like to find out why I get so much deflection but that is another topic.

I have talked to several , and most say noooooooo , however in my first and only attempt i found it to be quite helpfull and it didnt affect sound at all. I am however a novice. What i believe is happening alot is that in last 70 yrs or so things havent changed as much in some areas . people get the " it cant be done any other way" mentality.

I had one person look at my Mandolin and say " this isnt a Mandolin" because it didnt look like a F or A model and the neck was wider for easier chording . He could play it no prob. it sounded good and sounded like a Mando but it couldnt possibly be one cuse it didnt "look" right

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Most of my customers don't care. If they don't care I use a Dovetail. I've had a couple who specified Dovetails, and one who specified a M&T bolt on. There's way to much information on the internet. IMHO some people are too specific in what they want. I believe the outside( appearence) is theirs to design, and the inside is mine, with certain overlaps due to the tone they want. I had one guy who wanted me to use Titebond instead of HHG. Titebond is fine, but I don't even have any in my shop. If I were to win the lottery ( I won't because I don't buy tickets) I'd get all of you to make guitars for me, and I'd let you use whatever neck attachement (and glue) you want to use. I wouldn't even ask.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
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