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I just expect it to be the same as the material that it is compared to. Just like ablam is compared to solid shell that's all. This is pretty pricey stuff. The segments may not be of concern to you or others but it may be to some others as it is to me. I just think it is something that should have been mentioned as Jim did but in a different contex. Better to be up front and forth coming with mentioning it then to have someone order a $100 of it only to have it arrive and be dissapointed with it and find that it's not going to work for them. After all the forum is to enlighten us about the product as to it's good points as well as it's bad points or points that may be of some concern.

Steve,

ZipFlex is made up of actual pieces of abalone or abalam. The abalone surface is not a thin veneer over some thick flexible matrix, but a solid piece with only a very small matrix holding it together. You can see the thickness of the side edge matrix in the fotos. The bottom matrix is just as thin. That means the bulk of the depth is shell. I am at the office, so I can't measure, but I would say the shell must be at least .04" to .05" inches thick. I inlaid mine .01" or less proud of the surface and set the thickness sander to just skim the surface to clean it up. As the abalone in the ZipFlex is abalam (I believe), it behaves the same way any abalam does. Sand through a bit and another area is exposed.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Everything you need to know including close up pictures! No deception.
http://www.advancedshelltech.com/ZipFlexFAQ.htm#What_is_ZipFlex

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Chris,
Nothing to be disappointed about....
I have seen and used my fair share of Zipflex. Kevin uses it obviously in every guitar. Zipflex is made of Abalam and can be sanded through the first few layers without any problems. I will say that the joints seen on the rosette in the previous post are not supposed to be visible.The Abalam is glued on to a matrix that holds it in place but when installed one can not stretch the pieces or you will cause the joints to separate. Same as when installing any shell....one must make sure the pieces are close together. When installing Zipflex just make sure that any pressure is against the shell and not pulling it apart.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

I'm not saying that there was deception but I read all that stuff and looked at the pictures and until seeing the picture here did I see that it may have more visible joints then traditional inlay. This may be of some interest to some members that's all. Nothing wrong with having information and getting members view on things. That's all I'm saying.
Edit:
You posted just before me Peter.
Nice to get some heads up on the installation. So there is some good information coming from asking questions and discussing it.

As with abalam and shell I always try to inlay mine .003"-.005" deep as not to sand through the top layer. If you sand too much and hit the lower then top level the shell isn't as nice and you may hit the redish cast glue seam. Don't ask me how I know.

I admit this is the first time I have used ZipFlex, but I used considerable care when inlaying the product. In fact I used the back edge of my xacto blade to push each end of the rosette towards the center to close the gaps the best I could. The pictures I posted showed the rosette only rough sanded and greatly enlarged. I took some pictures this evening of the rosette now scraped and also laid a piece of new ZipFlex alongside for comparison. Note that the gaps in my inlaid ZipFlex are very consistent with the gaps in the new ZipFlex. At this level of detail, ZipFlex is going to show segment lines. I don't know how it cannot. Most people crack rather than cut abalone to get unpredictable lines between the segments. Because ZipFlex is made up of consistently sized pieces of abalam spaced at predictable intervals, the segments lines between pieces are going to be more noticeable, especially under close inspection.

I think perhaps too much undue fuss is being made about these segment lines. From a foot away, the lines in my rosette are completely invisible. This is 100% acceptable to me. I added another picture below to more closely approximate actual size from 8 to 10 inches. This image is probably more consistent with the images on Kevin's website and the image posted by Peter.

Ken



Chris,
Nothing to be disappointed about....
I have seen and used my fair share of Zipflex. Kevin uses it obviously in every guitar. Zipflex is made of Abalam and can be sanded through the first few layers without any problems. I will say that the joints seen on the rosette in the previous post are not supposed to be visible.The Abalam is glued on to a matrix that holds it in place but when installed one can not stretch the pieces or you will cause the joints to separate. Same as when installing any shell....one must make sure the pieces are close together. When installing Zipflex just make sure that any pressure is against the shell and not pulling it apart.

_________________
http://www.casperguitar.com

I just ordered an introductory set. I dont think those lines in your pics Ken are that big of a deal, but to perfectionists which I am sure there are many it might not be acceptable. I ordered the larger stuff for rosettes and was hoping to do just one lines with BWB purfling on each side but I realize now that may be really small... idk.

I would love to hear the answer to that. I am not sure I would do such a thing, better to hit it with a ROS or such.

Mike

Chris,

Don't let that photo, or my description sway you from trying it. You can do a rosette with one 15" piece (or two depending on the design). Once it's been CA'd and finished, those segments will be much more difficult to see. I would recommend giving it a try to see for yourself.

I only mentioned the segments because you have to be careful when cutting a channel for it. I would recommend measuring the zipflex in several locations with it curved to the radius you intend to use. Then average the results and add a smidge. I recommend testing it in similar material to ensure a nice easy fit. The only reason I had a problem is because I measured the stuff straight, and cut the channel tolerances too close.. and then had to wedge it in, which caused the black matrix material to squeeze up.

Kevin Ryan had even warned about this in an email when we inquired about using it in a rosette. I guess this was one of those lessons I had to experience to learn.

The stuff is a breeze to work with, you just have to be pretty careful with it.

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Jim Hansen

I was also worried about this, but found the concerns unfounded. I don't recall the exact dimensions of the pieces I used (it was the .047 size, but I don't recall the depth). Basically the black matrix material you see along the edges is about the same thickness on the bottom of the channel, so you can go pretty deep.

Perhaps someone who has some on hand could take a picture of the end of a piece (I would but I'm travelling to HGF and don't have any with me).

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Jim Hansen

I wouldn't worry about running it through the thickness sander as I do that with my standard installed rosettes. It's a quick way to level a shell rosette when finally finished. I will probaby try this zipflex out sometime in the future just to check it out but to tell you the truth I really don't see it being an advantage too me. I have the tools to cut my abalam or shell or recon stone to the correct size I need. And the installation of a simple ring rosette or side purf with b/w/b lines really isn't hard to do with abalam or shell or what ever material as long as you learn the method to do it and learn the tricks to keep the lines in order. Maybe I don't get it? But if you can inlay some lines and the zipflex then why can't you inlay the shell pieces with the lines instead of the zipflex? Most of us builders aren't productions shops so the labor savings which I'm not sure really are all that much and aren't as big of a concern as the cost of material. I can see where it would be useful to certain people and situations but for me I don't know. I like to have more controll over my inlay. I like to be able to control if the shell is on or off sometimes and I like to be able to match the colors a bit at the butt joints and I like to be able to limit the joints or place the joints where I want them sometimes. Maybe I'm a control freak or just get into doing certain things at times that cause me to stretch and hone my skills that require control over certain aspecs of the material to get a finished job that I'm happy with or fairly happy with. Although there are always mistakes made and things don't turn out perfect. But at least I strive for perfection and have to settle for less. Thus is the way of life and zipflex.

Mike,

I can control depth on my thickness sander to a few thousandths of an inch. So it was pretty easy to just skim the surface and remove the few thousandths of an inch I left proud. From there, some quick work with a scraper, and I had a nice level rosette. I have very limited experience with Abalam, so I don't know how many layers one can safely remove. But the Abalam Kevin uses has a fair amount of depth. I'd say the depth is pretty simlar to other shell inlay materials I have used. In fact I have used some rosette rings from Andy DePaule that were much thinner, but they were solid ab.

I guess whether you hand level or run through your thickness sander depends on what you are comfortable with. Based on my very limited experience with two rings and a single rosette, running through the thickness sander was non event.

ZipFlex is interesting stuff. Kevin has a good product out there. It won't entirely replace my use of shell, but I am pleased with the ease of use and the end result of my first project with it.

Ken

_________________
http://www.casperguitar.com

You don't really want to sand through the top layer of the abalam. That's why I try to set it a little deep and cover it with CA. As with solid shell as you sand through you will change the look of the shell. Some color can change and some lines or viens can disappear. I'll some times choose a certain piece of shell for the lines and pattern in it for effect say like for a leaf in a vine so that the line is looking like an engraved vein of the leaf. You can sand that out. But that doesn't matter in the rosette. I have my thickness set and haven't move it since I thickness sanded the top. I also used a prevail sprayer and sprayed a coat of shellac over the entire top and routed channels. It keeps the top clean and seals it from wood dust as well as dirt and the CA from staining the spruce. When I'm done I just run it through the thickness sander and it will level and remove the shellac from the top. It also helps keep sweat from your arms from staining the spruce . It's pretty hot down here in the south and you might walk outside to get the mail or something and then come in and start back and not realize you are sweating. You probably understand that Mike.

I wouldn't worry too much about running it through the sander. As long as you keep it to a minimum it will be fine. I do it all the time.
Here's one after drum sanding in the raw.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

OK, but what grit did you use?

Mike

100 Grit.

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Peter M.
Cornerstone Guitars
http://www.cornerstoneukes.com

Beautiful rosette. Thats the .064" size?

So that 100 grit does not cause gouging (to the shell)?
Mike

You are going to sand the top to 240 grit and then I take the shell all the way to a 1000 and sometimes through the mico mesh grits. If you lay it in deep 3-5 thousands you will be polishing the CA on top of the shell.

I finally got some Zipflex in. It is pretty stuff. But is does seem to thin for rosette work. I did see an example above that was Zipflex lined with purfling... but that picture makes it look bigger than it is! I guess that is why folks are using wood rosette rings between them.

Mike

I would think the wider the strip then the more the segments would be noticable. I don't really know but I'm assuming it wouldn't be any different then abalam since it's abalam segments glued to plastc somehow. It's like if you have wider then 1/16" strips of Abalam or shell for that matter it becomes harder to crack the shell around bends and the wider the strip the more noticable the breaks are. That's why you buy the curved strips of Abalam for rosettes. And that's why I cut my own. Did you order the widest they have?

I am a victim of the same folly Mike. Being in a metric country and all... I did not pay much attention to the widths listed in inches... doh! I got 5 pieces of 5 different shell types thinking I could get a rosette out of each piece. Lesson learned- pay more attention to measurements. Oh well, I am sure I will find uses for them eventually, and I want to do edge purfling in zipflex in the future. Right now I am reading up on how to do a shell rosette the old fashioned way.

Ps- It is indeed pretty stuff.

Yes, I ordered and recieved 0.064". I will have uses for it, but not for the main rosette. It will look good around the secondary sound hole. Guess I need to order some curved abalam. When they say curved (and I have seen it) I assume I still have to shape it, right? Don't you have a video on this?

Mike

I have never used pre cut curved pieces but yes they will need to be cracked to fit unless you make the ring the same radius they are cut at. If you plan on doing a lot of this it might not be a bad idea to make your self a jig simular to mine. That is if you have a 14" or smaller bandsaw. Have you checked out my finished rosette discussion?