Official Luthiers Forum!

Howdy,

I'm building a parlor guitar for my nephew using the Antes plans with modifications suggested by some of you guys in the past - lighter bracing, 13 frets to the body, and 24.9" scale.

Now if I'm doing my math right (and I'm often not), the bridge location in the plans is not where it should be relative to the scale. I need to move the bridge and bridge plate a bit towards the neck. This will also let the bridge over hang the x-legs more. Am I on the right track with that? I assume making a shorter neck to get things to line up on the bridge is a bad idea.

Thanks for any guidance.

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Mike Lindstrom

Mike,

I'm relatively new to the guitar building mania, but I have built a couple of guitars similar to the Antes Small Concert "Parlor" guitar. You are correct that you should adjust your x-brace so that the corners of the bridge will overhang the path of the x-brace more (but not excessively so, as they do on the 000/OM plans, which have just the opposite problem - too much overhang). On the Antes Parlor plan only a very small triangle (about 3/16") of the corner of the bridge is actually riding over the path of the x-brace. You should have that much or a scoche more riding BEYOND the path of the brace. In other words, if you adjust it so that the outside edge of the x passes under the bridge where the inside does on the plan, you should be good. I hope I'm explaining this in a way that's clear.

Here are a couple of other thoughts (while I'm looking at the Antes plan). 1) yYu may want to increase the area of your bridge reinforcement plate so that it has about an extra 1/4" or so in front AND in back of the bridge (Antes leaves very little room for reinforcement / error). 2) You will probably want to cut a wider bridge saddle slot. 3) You may want to move the whole saddle slot slightly back a bit, so that you have at least 1/8" of material in front of the slot at the High E area (there's hardly more than 1/16" of material in front of the saddle slot on the Antes plan).

Hope all of this helps! Other than some of these technical shortcomings, it's an attractive little design!

Happy building!

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Ken Mitchell
Durham, NC

It sounds like you are on the right track.

The most critical dimensions on the guitar have to do with getting the bridge in the right place for the scale length. If you have that right... It will at least play right.... Otherwise, the "Guitar" turns into a shiny wooden thing you hang on the wall.

So... if you are using a scale length different than the original plans, you have to adjust the rest of the bracing around the new bridge location.... and even if not... it can be a good reality check to make sure that their dimensions put things where they actually ought to be.

So Yes... you gotta figure out where the bridge is actually supposed to go.

Step #1 is to measure your fretboard to see what scale length they actually sent you... While getting a 25.0" scale fretboard when you ordered a 24.9" fretboard doesn't seem like too much of a problem... I guarantee it won't play in tune when you glue the bridge for a 24.9" scale... It's usually not a problem... but sometimes you get a 25.5" fretboard instead of a 25.4" fretboard ........

Step #2 is figure out where the saddle centerline needs to go with your scale length and fret# body joining location.

Step 3 is to then pencil in your bridge's footprint... because if you design a guitar for a 1" pyramid bridge, then install a 1 1/2" belly bridge... your bridge plate may not be big enough.

Step 4 is to figure your bridge plate depending on whatever front and back overlaps you are comfortable with...

Then Step 5 is to put in the X brace making sure you have sufficient overlap on the bridge feet.

Good luck

John

I usually like to splay the X a little more than most plans call for on my parlors. I've made the bridges a little longer (6.5-6.75") to hit the ends of the X. It's worked fine and you really don't notice it looking at the guitar.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Mike,

One last thing (that has been mentioned here before regarding the Antes Parlor plan) is that the view is from above, looking down 'through' the guitar. The only thing that readdly affects is the tone bar placement. Looking at the top as you brace it on your bench (i.e., upside down), be sure to have the tone bar come off of the left or opposite side of the x-brace, which is of course the High E side, when you flip it over and put the top on the box.

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Ken Mitchell
Durham, NC

Thanks for the advice. It sounds like I am heading in the right direction. And thanks for all the reminders. I'm using an OLF enhanced slotting template, so the fretboard should be ok as long as I grab the right one and don't turn it around. I chiseled out the tonebar and replaced it yesterday (despite having read reminders about the mirror error repeatedly)!
I'm out of order on your steps, John as I already have the X in per the plans (but thinner), but it seems like everything is going to line up well as long as my math is good and I get the bridge plate scooted up the right amount. As this guitar (my 4th ever, and first solo) is for my 6 year old nephew who doesn't play, I'm not too worried. Part of the plan was to work out the kinks on this one and do it better on the next one.

Thanks again.

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Mike Lindstrom

I would check the bridge placement over the X, especially if you have installed the X in position as if the guitar where a 12 fret. Making it a 13 fret will move the bridge forward by exactly the distance between the 12 and 13th frets on your plans. I dont know the plans in question , but you dont want to have the bridge pin holes going thru a brace !!! It shoudlnt, but you never know.

In general, if you have plans and want to change the neck joint (12 to 13 or 14, or 14 to 13 or 12), what you would do is superimpose the plans over the top, moving the entire brace pattern ahead or back by the same distance as the fret change. That said however, if you plan to keep the soundhole in the same place, and either add (or subtract) frets on the FB, then you will likely need to re-adjust the X angle.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Tony - Thanks for mentioning the bridge pin holes. I had not thought to check those. It looks like there's plenty of slop there in this case. It looks like I'm going to have to move the bridge plate / bridge up about 10 mm or so. My body curve doesn't match the plan quite at the top, so I've got some staring and thinking to do to figure exactly.
For reference, this is the thread that pointed me in this direction.
http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=21302
What I thought I was doing was leaving the x in place and geometry, but changing the scale and neck joint to bring the bridge up to get more support for it and have a longer scale. I still will need to lengthen the bridge a little if I want it entirely over the x. Sure is a learning experience isn't it?

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Mike Lindstrom

One of the things I teach my students is how to draw a set of plans for something from scratch. You start with two things .... scale length, and number of frets to the body. The guitar's shape doesnt even matter here, as no matter what shape you use, if those two things are the same, then so is the bracing pattern.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Two points.

Carefully check a dimensioned distance on the plan. That will tell you if the drawing is really to scale. Most get off a little off when they are fotocopied.

The second. You want to compensate the saddle on a SS about .15" (move it away from the nut) On a 24.9" scale that would mean the center line of the saddle, at the middle position (bewteen the 3rd & 4th strings) should be about 25.05" from the nut. This allows the string to stay in tune while it is fretted up the neck. (pushed down and tightened)

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Tony - When I think about it that way everything makes sense. I'm one of those guys always asking why. Usually about things without clear cut answers. But if you think about a guitar as just a holder for the strings, once you've got a location for the bridge and the neck joint, stick a hole in the middle, there's not a lot of options for where everything else goes is there, particularly if you're looking to use the X as your basic pattern. Interesting.

Joe - I had not checked the plan. I have now, and it's off less than 0.5% off in both x and y. I am remembering to include compensation, but thanks for the reminder. More often than not I need help not forgetting. 0.15" sounds big to me though. I haven't done this enough to have internalized the data, but I'm pretty sure that's bigger than I've done in the past. I suppose that depends a lot on where you measure though. I'll have to check my notes. Wasn't there a thread on that not to long ago?

Thanks for all the help.

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Mike Lindstrom

Along the lines of what Tony said, something I was shown in the Fox course was how to make a "core template". I have one for each scale length. It has the fretboard, sound hole location, and compensated saddle location all in one template. You can make other marks for the front of the bridge, bridge plate, etc. I always use it as a double check every time I brace a top. The diamond cutout is the neck/body junction.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Thats not a bad idea Terry ... I simply have patterns for each scale and fret postion kicking around (students and I have pretty much built them !!).

.150 for comp ... I guess it depends on the angle of the saddle .. I use 2.5mm for both 24.9 and 25.4, which is more like .100

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Yep, compensation is pretty subjective. I believe the most important factor is action height. (Low action less compensation, etc.)

I tend to shoot for the middle of the road. From there I can compensate the saddle to get it close. (perfect continues to elude me. Maybe with six individual saddles like an electric bridge)

The best middle of the road calculation I have found is the one on Ste-Mac's site.

Here: http://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator/

That gives you the compensated lenght of the 1st & 6th strings. The average of the two is the compensated middle position of the saddle.

But then whatever works for you..........

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Terry - That's one of those things that's just so obvious, I can't imagine why I haven't already made some. Quickly and simply can help me not make an error. Thanks for that tip.
Mike

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Mike Lindstrom