Official Luthiers Forum!

...with a big dose of Al. If you've ever been interested in how plate tuning etc. works, this looks like the ticket.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Thanks for the the video and link Bob, I ordered a copy as soon as I saw the preview.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Not crazy about the me too posts that don't offer any new information, but here I am... Me too!!! Ordered it as soon as word was out. I can't wait to add this info to my metaphorical tool box...

Don

Me 3!

Dave F.

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

very inteesting, I wonder if Alan will be at the ASIA symposium with DVDs in hand? Jody

Very interesting, indeed. I notice the new DVD set is billed as plate tuning for steel string guitars. I wonder if anyone knows how it might apply to nylon string guitars? Perhaps Alan will weigh in here.

Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Wow! Two of my best friends are on This DVD. Al Carruth and Michael Neverisky. I can't wait to see it.

heck, I just ordered my copy too ! Jody

Max:
The technique works just as well on classical as on steel string guitars, but, as you can imagine, there are a few differences. In talking it over beforehand we decided to limit the range of coverage in favor of getting a little more depth.

Those shows really bug me, where Norm says :"And now we'll just go over and cut the box joint on the saw", which he's already set up. Of course it goes perfectly. I always want to know how you set the thing up, and what you do when it DOESN'T go perfectly. So when Mike suggested it I figured I'd do this one the way I'd want to see it. Fortunately, he went along.

In the video I started out with four steel string tops, of different woods and different sizes. I knew (and I tell you why) that one was going to be easy to tune, and one was going to be tricky. Mike edited the thing so that it starts out with a more or less 'average' top, in terms of difficulty, and spends some time there going over the equipment, how to look for modes, where the modes come from in a sense, and so on. We spent a LOT of time later on that difficult top, because, as I suspected it would, it presented some 'weird' mode shapes and other problems that gave plenty of scope for: "....well, let's see if THIS works!"

At some point I hope we can do another (at least) on classical guitars. I'd also like to get into tuning the backs (which can be a can of worms), and, eventually, a lot of other stuff.

I'd like to thank Mike Collins for getting in touch and suggesting this in the first place, and for all the other work he did. I got the fun part in front of the camera, he had to sweat.

Where are you ordering this?
I can't find any mention at collinsguitar.

Joe

Joe,
It is on the front page on http://www.collinsguitar.com. At first I couldn't find it either, but then it turned out I was browsing http://www.collinsguitarS.com.

Hi Alan,

I'm still a bit confused. you say that the "technique" works equally well on steel and nylon string instruments. Later you say that you would also like to make a DVD for classical. I would like to know how the "DVD" would work for nylon string guitars (I make flamenco and classical guitars). I'm trying to decide whether to buy the current DVD or wait/hope for one on nylon string guitars.

Thanks again,
Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Sorry Max.

A lot of the DVD covers the technique: what the patterns are, how to look for them, and so on. Also, the equipment gets covered pretty well. The basic method of looking at a top to decide whehter it's going to be easy or hard to tune holds across the board. In that respect, you'd get some information from this DVD.

All of the tops I look at in this go-round are X-braced. I have not had much luck with that pattern on classical smaller than a 12-fret 000 size, which is a lot larger than any 'normal' classical. I do play one of those (my 'Autumn' guitar) on the DVD, but, of course, you can't tell much from a recording in any event. Sharon Isbin liked it, though! But I digress.

In some ways fan-braced tops are easier to tune than X-braced ones. Often the modes look really good right off the bench, which is a testimony to the robustness of the design. You can usually do a little tweaking to get them to be better, though. Also, I've found a couple of things that I try to avoid on classicals: frequency relationships and mode shapes that have not worked out well in the past. These are not common problems, and I don't think you need to worry to much about them if you want to try Chladni tuning. Anyway, when we get around to the classical DVD I'll cover all of that, and try to look at some of the alternative bracing patterns, like the angled waist bar and Bouchet brace, as well. So you might want to wait.

If you have specific questions you can e-mail me, or post them on this list, and I'll try to address them. It's easier to get some things across in a video, especially since I'm working on a dial-up connection that really limits my ability to post graphics.

Thanks, Al. That helps.

Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

I want the classical DVD as well, but I'll take what I can get as an intro at this point

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Yeah, thanks Bob. I've been reading Al's posts forever at the MIMF and, more recently, here. Maybe this will help me put it all together.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

For all of you who have placed advance orders; I have received a message from the manufacturer that the discs are now ready to go. I will be shipping the discs this coming week (July 12-16), so be watching for those. I hope you enjoy and learn a lot from the info presented.
Thanks everyone!

Michael Collins
www.collinsguitar.com

Hi Michael (or Al), is the dvd region free?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

+one on the classical version! I ordered this one without realizing it was steel string focused, but that is okay because it will help me get a start on the equipment and process. BUT, I will eagerly await the news of the the classical version...

To answer Arnt's question, the disc is region free.

Michael Collins


Hi Michael (or Al), is the dvd region free?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin
Trondheim, Norway

Hello again,

Just a quick note for those of you who have ordered the disc.
I have finally received the dvd's and have them packed up and ready to ship out tomorrow (July 14).
Thanks again folks, I sure hope you enjoy it.

Michael Collins
www.collinsguitar.com

I have a big question:

How much does the equipment run to build a speaker/ tone tuner thingi? About...

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

There are a few ways to do that. On the DVD I used one of Don Bradley's signal generators, which is purpose-built for the job. It has lots of nice functions, the right amount of power, it's easy to use, and it's expensive. Sorry about that.

There are a couple of computer programs I've seen, such as 'SigGen' and 'SweepG', that enable you to use your soundcard to generate the sine waves, and run through the frequency range fairly simply. You will still need a power amp (say, about 12W, although 20 is nicer) and some sort of speaker. I have never used the programs myself: I started in before there were home computers, let alone ones with sound cards.

The GAL put out a Data Sheet, longer ago than I care to think, with all the circuit diagrams for a signal generator and frequency counter for plate tuning. Matt Fichtenbaum, then of General Radio Corp., made up the first one for Tom Knatt, and we built about twenty of them over the following few years. These days there are lots of better ways to impliment the frequency counter, which was the tough part (six 4000 series CMOS ICs, with about a hundred jumpers! Talk about static problems!). The actual signal generator was an 8038 IC with an op-amp output, and a few resistors, capacitors and a diode. It was not perfect, but it was reliable. In fact, for day to day use I still use the last one I wired up, back about 1984. It has a 7216D frequency counter, and a monolithic 50W solid state amp that I limited to 30W to keep from blowing speakers too fast.

Many electronic flea markets, such as the MIT Flea, will have old signal generators that don't have the high frequency capability for modern uses. We don't need gigaHertz.

FWIW, I'm of the opinion that Don's setup is worth it. It covers a broader frequency range than anything I could make, puts out a purer signal, has finer frequency control, and has an mic input jack for doing other sorts of tests, like finding the peak frequency for Young's modulus calculations. Unless you're an electronics geek, by the time you cobble up something that will do the same job as well you'll have spent more money, and lot of time.

For my Mac iBook, I spent about $200 3 years ago (no additional soundcard needed). It's handy to have on the bench to look up info, plus I've got a lot of reference material stored on it. $60 for an old 40 watt Pioneer stereo receiver from the 70s. I chose one that had a power output meter. I got a PA speaker, 8", if I recall (6 inch would have been better) that handles 40 watts, from ebay.

The software I use is AudioTest available here for $15:

http://www.katsurashareware.com/pgs/audiotest.html

Plugged the headphone output from the computer into the Aux jack on the receiver. Works pretty well, though I don't have anything that will tell me how pure a waveform I'm getting. Someday I'll put a scope on it.

Pat

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I just did a Google search and downloaded a free tone generator for my PC.

I opened up an old set of speakers I had in the garage and it had a 4" speaker inside. I thought I would need a larger diameter speaker but turns out this one worked fine.

I needed some kind of amp to power the speaker. At work someone had place an old set of computer speakers in the throw away pile. I knew these had amps built-in so I wondered if they would have enough power to drive my speaker. I tried it and it worked. The right-hand speaker (the one with the volume/tone knobs and the on/off switch) is the one with the amp. I connected the wire going to the left-hand speaker to the 4" speaker from the set of speakers in my garage and it had plenty of power to vibrate the soundboard. BTW, the speakers inside set of computer speakers were 2" or smaller so I didn't try those.

This worked real well. Only problem I had was the small speaker inside the right-hand speaker/amplifier would distort and buzz from being driven too hard. This was annoying so I opened the case and clipped the wires connecting to this speaker so I didn't have to listen to it.

Anyhow, cost was $0.00 for my setup.

Here is a shot of the patterns produced on my OM sized soundboard. This is without braces:

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......