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My next endeavor is making a OO nylon crossover. I was thinking of not making the traditional tie block classical bridge.
I do have some pinless bridges for my steel strings and was wondering if it would work just to use one of them.
The idea is to tie a knot at the end of the string and pass it through the pinless slot. The knot would function like the ball end of the string

Do you think this would work???

Below is an example of one of my bridges

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

The idea sounds like it will .. why not try it.

The only downfall I can see is that over time the tension will pull the knot tightly into the hole, possibly forcing the player/owner to have to resort to mechanical means (ouch) to get the darn thing out. the knot likely wont be as large as the ball end of a SS ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I tried that once, and the unwound treble strings pulled right out of the knot. However, one work-around to that is to heat the end of the treble strings with a match so that it melts and forms a small ball. This should stop the unraveling knot.

Also, keep the hole or slot that the string goes through as small as possible so the single string just clears. Having to make an extra large knot to make up for a loose fitting slot will allow the knot to deform under pressure and slip through.

Why not just use ball-end nylon strings?

Thanks for the info
I didn't know that ball end nylons existed. I have very little experience with nylons.

In looking at my pinless, would it just work to use it like a tie block???????
Just pull the strings through and tie around the ebony like a tie block or would the ebony not be strong enough?????

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Andy,

You could always use the ukulele type bridge where the string goes through a hole in the bridge into the box, you pull up the string through the soundhole and attach a bead on the end of the string. This then seats against the bridge-plate. It's a little more fiddly to change strings but gives you great scope for bridge design - no bulky string block needed behind the saddle. Here's one on the taropatch harp ukulele that I made recently (the sub-basses used classical guitar nylon strings):

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I think the Ebony would be strong enough, but I'm not seeing where you are going to tie it. The treble, particularly the E, strings are fussy about staying tied, and a ball melted on the end is a good idea. I don't know if the melted ball would be strong enough to keep the string from breaking where the ball is melted on. Usually, you only depend on the ball to stop the knot from slipping. Generally the tie-block on a classical is 6 - 10mm high and 10 - 12 mm thick and bored with 6, 12, or 18 holes depending on preference. It's hard to tell from the angle of the picture of your bridge what would act as the tie-block. However, you could use beads as the ball, and tie a knot, using a figure-eight type knot that shouldn't slip, on the smaller strings. The only ball end nylons I know are the Martin Folk strings. Maybe there are others.

Dave's post was more helpful. He was posting while I was typing.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Andy,
I believe your idea would work. I have not made a classical guitar, but I have owned/played one for many years. You should be able to tie off the string on your bridge.
One thing to mention - I believe your bridge is a little on the large/heavy side for classical.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I have seen little beads with multiple holes marketed specificaly to tie to the ends of classical strings. The link below discusses this a little.
Bead ends work fine in a conventional classical bridge.

http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=10809

Andy;
your idea should work fine.
Either way!
Just remember that you need a good breakover angle on the saddle.
Nylon strings need this more than steel strings.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Ball-end nylon strings:
http://www.stringsandbeyond.com/deanmarbalen.html
http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--MRTM120
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MRTM120

Thanks for the info. I have more questions so I will put them in another thread

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Andy,

My vote is with the pass thru bridge like Dave White posted. This style of string attatchment is very popular with us ukulele builders. I really like the clean lines it produces. With a guitar you can just reach in and grab the strings to add the bead. With the ukuleles we use a piece of wire with a loop to reach through the smaller sound hole. I had a couple of photos I was going to post but Dave's are very good. Here is one more for a different angle.


Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

Andy, Have you looked at Taylors' nylon series bridge? They use plain ebony as a tie block.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I think the reason for not using ebony on most nylon strung guitars is not the strength of the wood, but the additional damping that will reduce the output of the nylon strings.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Here is an example of my bridge where I tied some nylon strings through to see how the would sit.
I don't think it looks that bad. I could also use ball end nylons as suggested

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Classical guitar bridges usually extend farther across the soundboard. Using that bridge might affect the tone.

I once trimmed the ends off a bridge after gluing it on, and it changed the sound of the guitar a lot. Added an unpleasant clunk.

Andy,

I am right in the middle of a Padauk/Engleman Nylon Crossover ( Mustapick style) and must say that these are very interesting builds. I stuck with a standard classical bridge adjusting the string spacing to accomodate the 1 7/8" nut.

I noticed that my playing instructor (classical player) is constantly changing sting manufacturers in search of the right feel and sound. If you went to ball end nylons you may be stuck with limited string options.
Also, I feel that aestheticaly classical bridges just "look right" in this type of build. (just personal opinion)

Ray

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Guitar Building = Continuous Improvement Process

Once upon a time, before Torres, the early romantic guitars used a pin bridge with the gut strings. It would work with the Nylon, too. The issue that imposes itself is that it is critical that the string holes NOT cut through the braces. Location is critical, so plan carefully. That is why tie block became the standard, especially when using bracing more complex than ladder bracing.

Why are you interested in using non tie block bridges? The only reason that I would question is that tying the strings is too much hassle.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/