Official Luthiers Forum!

I am an accomplished woodworker, so I have some of the basic skills and tools to begin a project, however, I have never done this before, so let me give you the project:
My son is a guitarist...fairly good, if I say so myself. His arsenal includes a Martin 0000M, Gibson SG, 1968 Epiphone acoustic guitar and a coupla other 'knock around' guitars. He does not have, however, a nylon string guitar. I thought that as a gift, I would build one for him.
I was thinking of an 'electric' nylon...the type I see jazz musicians play (narrower neck), rather than the Classical guitar (Spanish, I think), that I grew up with. Maybe you could give me the proper name for the intended instrument.
So, I never see this type being shown...Where can I get a start? I would love plans and some pics. I will have a ton of questions once I get the project on paper.

Search for Semler and Maccaferri guitars, they are manouche jazz guitars, I think they have a nylon string.

Welcome Alan
I too am looking for info/plans for this type of guitar. Not much luck so far. take a look at Matt Mustapick's site he is is building some real nice ones. As far as i can figure you either a) design your own b)take a small steel string plantilla and brace it classically or c) take a classical plan and modify. The problem with the last option is that classicals are 12 fret and you will probably want 14 frets. This changes the geometry moving the bridge closer to the
soundhole and away from the centre of the lower bout. Bill gave me this link on a previous thread http://www.guitarplansunlimited.com/
good luck

I took a Torres design and put a cutaway on it and really like the result. I'm using a K&K 4 Spot PU. You might want to look into the D-Tar electronics. I think he might have some nice stuff for nylon string. I think Chet Atkins played a Gibson nylon electric of some kind but know nothing about it. Other jazz guys like Lenny Breau and Joe Pass just played classicals I think.

I look forward to others chiming in because crossover nylons are cool and I'd like to hear what other have to say.

Cheers,
Danny

The Selmer gypsy jazz guitars are steel string. There are nylon string Selmers, but they are classicals.

Chet Atkins played a signature model that he worked out with Gibson.

I think that if I were in this situation I'd build a flamenco. Those are great fun to play!

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

You could ask Rick Turner how he does these http://www.renaissanceguitars.com/nylon-guitar.php

Hi Alan,
One of the models I build is a "Jazz Classical".
I designed my own 15" shape with a cut-a-way-(simmilar to an archtop shape). I use neck width that is in between a classical and an archtop. (no truss rod-graphite reinforcement)
They are fan braced like a traditional classical.
I have built them with arch backs and flat backs. I have prefered the sound of the flat back ones-probably because they are lighter.

There is a picture of one on my website- www.goodmanguitars.com

Brad Goodman's guitars are NICE... I am trying to get a plan together that will be straightfoward in execution as well has have a terrific sound (I know, dream on!).
Since my son will primarily do plug-in playing, I originally thought that the Godin http://www.godinguitars.com/godinmultnylonsap.htm) type would be best. But, I have seen slim nylons with soundholes that had nice sound when non-electric. I didn't want to build a bulky piece...but if sound is based on size/ bracing, then I will scrap the Godin style. And, I don't have the knowledge to electrify like those.
I just installed an undersaddle p/u (Infinity) in his Martin...that's about how much I want to get involved with pickups...
So question: Slim body? Possible? Otherwise...I like the guitars that Brad Goodman(above post) made. If I can pull off something close to that, Me and Son will be happy.

An electric nylon jazz guitar eh?

Well electric use pickups which don't work with nylon strings ...but you can use transducers. surf this site for all the parts you gonna need.

http://www.stewmac.com

Go to http://www.lmii.com or search google for websits offering plans suitable for a nylon acoustic guitar for the neck and headstock measurements.

Jazz guitars are traditionally carved tops and backs ... just like the violin family. So get a copy of Robert Benedetto's Making an Archtop Guitar.

Use the Benedetto's information for the entire guitar and the neck joint...only substituting the neck and headstock measurments from a nylon string guitar.


Simple.


blessings
the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Archtop will be too difficult at my skill level...flat for me! Any other book recommendations?

I like Danny V's idea - a Torres or other classical plan for the body, and a cutaway if you're up for the extra challenge (and, if you think your son would play "up there.")

My major deviation would be to abandon the Spanish heel, and make it a bolt-on mortise and tenon joint. Some here will say I'm crazy for adding this advice: make the neck joint adjustable. (There are half a dozen variations on how to construct an adjustable neck joint, and I don't think it is really much harder than a non-adjustable neck joint.) The bonus is that the neck angle - which is a "bit fiddly" and probably one of the trickiest things to get right - will have a couple of degrees of leeway up or down in case you need it.

Disclaimer: I'm a beginner, one guitar completed (with an adjustable neck joint) and several more started. I am not a pro working on commissioned pieces or attempting to make my mark in a world of players that generally want fairly "standard" instruments, only better. So, I can afford to "go for it" where I know it would be unwise for the pros. But, it kind of sounds like your situation is not too far from that, so I say "go for it."

If you want a 14th fret to the body join (or even a 13th), just shift the entire soundboard bracing and bridge toward the peghead the distance from your plans (at the 12th fret) and your desired fret join position.

I'm sure some of the folks here will see my advice somewhere between heresy and lunacy, but you said you're an accomplished woodworker, and I'm taking you at your word. You could take a set of plans for a 5 drawer chest of drawers and modify it into a 7 drawer combination lingerie and jewelry chest, right? Don't be afraid to synthesize between plans for a steelstring guitar (the neck) and a classical guitar (the body.) The nylon strings just don't have as much vibrational energy, which is why your soundboard needs to be constructed (more or less) like a classical guitar in terms of thickness and bracing.

Have a blast with this! It will likely be your most memorable woodworking project of your life.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I would caution against shifting the soundboard bracing pattern to get a 14 fret neck. Better to shift the upper bout down to make the space.

There is a lot to get right in a good classical of any sort, and it doesn't take much to go "wrong" to throw it off. I would offer that its best not to deviate too far from proven instrument plans until some mastery has been achieved. Some things can be easily altered, some can't. Mastery lets you know which is which.

Easy to do incorporate: cutaway, bolt on neck, internal amplification, headstock shape, decorative elements, neck width/thickness.

Not so easy to change (without consequences): internal structure, string height/angle at bridge, neck angle.

It is critical to get the top, the bridge, and the neck "right". Get these and all else is gravy!

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Yo, Alan S...

regarding carving a top...I just don't understand or get it why so many are intimidated to carve a top....it ain't all that dang hard to do at all... go get a 2x6x8 hunk of spruce for a few bucks , glue up a top blank and in less than a days work with a few gouge chisels and a round sanding disk in a drill, you will have carved a top. They are just not that hard to do. Dang it, it can be done with just a belt sander and a disk sander and a dust mask and you don't even need the mask.

But if you don't wanna do a carved top then you ain't building a Jazz electric...your building a plain old nylon string with a transducer. Simple.

Regarding books for flat top nylon builds....take your pick lots out there on the sites I posted.

Oh and if you surf a bit you will find a company that sells ready "carved tops and back" that are really pressed veneers or ply wood. DO NOT BE FOOLED by the B.S. (belief systems) ~ Ply wood or veneer is an exceptional quality tone wood and much stronger than a traditional build.


good luck.

the
Padma

_________________
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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I was hoping Ray Lee would respond to this thread, as he has built several beautiful nylon string guitars that are probably similar to what you are talking about building. He had his latest at the Chicago area gathering a few weeks ago and it was a wonderful guitar to play. You may want to email him directly.
Kent

Hi gentlemen. I'm new to this site and relatively new to guitar making, having made just 4 classicals and an acoustic archtop so far. That is, after making around 20 violins and a few electric instruments.

I'm currently making more-or-less what you are talking about, a (small) nylon string jazz guitar. I'm using a Torres plan but I have made a cutaway and the neck is narrower than a standard classical. I do intend though, that it will be a pure acoustic.

The other option is make a chambered body instrument. You find players like Chet Atkins playing this model. From the front, it looks like a normal classical but it is only 50mm thick and the body is milled from a solid billet of wood ( I use an overhead router). I do have plans for this model and indeed have completed a body to date.

If you'd like the see my drawings, I can e-mail something to you.

Murray Kuun

I've made a few Classicals for Jazz players, and here's what seems to work for me (or, more importantly, for them!).

DON'T go too narrow on the neck! Any less than about 1-7/8" at the nut can be a problem. When I've allowed somebody to talk me into that, they invariably show up a few months later aking if the neck can be made wider. That's hard. Making a wide neck narrower is easy, and, by simply cutting a new nut, you can check the idea out before you do something irrevocable.

Don't make the body too big. I think it's harder to get good tone out of a big classical than a small one. If you go with somjething as large as the Martin 000 (15" wide or so), use X bracing. Otherwise, stick with Torres or something proven like that.

It's actually pretty easy to shift all of the bracing and the soundhole 'north' to make the guitar with a 14-fret neck.

A shallower body will usually give a more 'forward' or 'projecting' sound, but with less 'depth' in the low end.

The last one of these I made with a transducer was a while ago, and we went with a UST; probably a Fishman. These work pretty well. If you go that route, make the saddle slot with about a 9 degree back angle (as seen in the side view). This cuts down the tipping force on the saddle, and, more importantly for this application, increases the downbearing on the UST, which helps it's output. I picked this trick up from Rick Turner, who ought to know about that sort of thing.

If you make a more or less 'standard' classical, with the normal scantlings, and stick in a pickup, it WILL feed back at moderate levels of gain. If your son expects to have to fight with a sax or trumpet player yo umight want to make something that's more dedicated to the pickup, with a heavier top and maybe a smaler, or even non-existant, soundhole.

Jazz players who are interested in Classical guitars are pretty much after the sorts of benefits that you get from that platform. The only 'special' requirements they generally have are that the intonation be correct all the way up the neck, the upper fret access be easier, and the tone be pretty even, with good solid 'color' on the highest notes. Given that the latter is the hardest thing to get on any classical, just make the best classical you can, and it should be a fine jazz box.

Alan or others, any thoughts on a radiused fretboard in this case?

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

Oh, Alan...in your attempt to help, you have confused me even more (but it WILL pay off). Now...about a unit without a soundhole. This maybe a nice option because I believe he will want to play it via amplification (I am guessing...it's a gift). If so, where do I get plans/ info on this type of guitar? I will suppose that it will be thinner and have different bracing... Any details/ reading references, etc. would be helpful.

I think Alan has it on the money....Build the best guitar you can and worry about the electrics later I just traded in my thin bodied electric nylonfor a guitar that i could actually play on my knee
Straight swap...lost money... the amplification tecnology gets better every year
Its an heirloom build him an Instrument that he will still pick up when hes at home and 35 yrs old and the band is hard to find

If I were making one with no soundhole, I think I'd just use standard plans and leave out the hole! I'd be more inclined to make one with a hardwood top, though, if I knew it was going to be amplified all the time.

The basic idea, in any case, is that you want to make an amplified guitar in such a way that is has all the usual response, just less of it. If the room can hear the guitar, ten the guitar can hear the room. Feedback is just a matter of how much gain there is in the loop with anything that you can hear acoustically. The less acoustic sound there is, the more gain you can use.

One other thing we found out years ago is that it often seems to be the case that guitars that have a lousy acoustic sound come across well through an amp. I built a shallow bodied double-cutaway archtop for a friend in an effort to reduce feedback problems. A player named Wolfgang Muthspiel borrowed it, and noted that while it sounded good, if muted, acoustically, the straight up amped sound was not so nice. We came to the conclusion that the 'good' sound was being taken out of the strings and radiated acoustically, which left all the stuff you didn't like in the strings to drive the pickups. That's a bit simplistic, but seems to work out in practice. I subsequently made a similar sized archtop with a solid maple top thathad lousy bass acoustically, but sounded fine through the amp.

Sadly, UPS destroyed it and refused to pay up, even though it was insured. Thier theory seems to be that if it breaks, it was improperly packed, and the insurance is void if it was not properly packed. Nice circular logic.

I digress: if it's ALWAYS going to be played through an amp, I'd make a shallow box with a normal soundhole, and some sort of hardwood top, like curly maple or mahogany. You want the 'main air' and 'main top' resonant pitches to be anywhere from a third to a fifth high: so the 'air' pitch would come in between A and C, and the 'main top' about an octave higher. Use some sort of UST for the pickup; a soundboard transducer will tend to miss the low end in this sort of setup, while with a UST it will be enhanced.