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Could some of you with experience using fish glue tell me what to expect using it? I glued up a test block tonight. How do you spread the glue and how thin? Do you apply to both surfaces? When/how do you remove the squeeze out?

I looked through the archives and couldn't find anything on how to use fish glue. I have a bottle from Lee Valley that has been in the refrigerator for over a month and was thinking of using it for the first time glueing teh neck and tail blocks to the sides.

Appreciate your input.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I've been using Fish Glue lately as a substitute for Hot Hide Glue in certain applications. Spread a thin film generally on both surfaces and clamp for 24 hours. The open time allows for a relaxed period of time to assure proper alignment. It's an easy glue to use and has the same properties as HHG. I typically clean the squeezeout with a tapered stick after 30 minutes. A damp rag cleans up any remaining film.

Good luck.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I don't get the enthusiasm for fish glues as a good glue for guitar work or wood work in general compared to hide glue. I know there has been a lot of talk on here about this in the past and some here use it currently. I wouldn't but thats me. Long term humidity can weaking fish glue joints. Water introduced to fish glue joints can also weaken them. Now hide glue can withstand the highest humidities without weakening. It also can take very high temperatures without softening. I'm sure others will have their own opinions to add...Mike

No it can't. I see failed hide glue joints all the time from Michigan basements. Though excellent heat resistance and creep resistance are some shared qualities of both hide and fish glue, neither of them are impervious to high humidity. Hide glue may be bit less sensitive to extreme humidity and moisture than fish glue, but not by a whole lot in my experience. When a guitar built at 45% spends a good deal of time up in the 90% humidity range for long, something's going to give anyway, whether it be the glue joint or the wood. That's the way I look at it anyway.

That said, I still use hide glue for joints like bridges, not so much for structural reasons rather than convenience, less clamping time, and much easier cleanup, etc. They each have their place, but I use fish glue in most repairs where I may have used white glue in the past - primarily brace repairs and reglues.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I consider David to be the champion and expert on anything Fish Glue. It's because of his experience and advocacy that I even tried it a few years ago and am forever grateful that I did. I now use it to glue the backs and sides whereas I formerly used HHG.

As far as moisture resistance, Colin Symond, our persnickety UK brother did some qualifying trials on the moisture resistance of FG by subjecting the glue joints to the humidity of a shower room for several sessions. Following that conditioning, subjecting the joints to destructive testing revealed torn wood...not glue lines. It's actual data like that that we should follow rather than just project our own opinions from manufacturer's data sheets.

In my opinion, FG is worthy of serious consideration for quality instrument joints. Remember, however...the quality and accuracy of the surfaces being glued is still the single most important factor in producing the best joints possible.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Its all I have used to glue cocobolo in about 5 years .. still no failures.

i too use the LV stuff, getting a new bottle every year, and use it pretty much just like titebond - nice thin coat .

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I use it for operations I want more time on. Gluing lining to the sides, glueing tops and backs to the rims. I use a small brush to apply it evenly. The time it allows to get a nice thin even coat before needing to clamp also helps minimize squeeze out. I cant imagine getting the same thin even coat doing it with hide. Theres just not enough time.

I still use hide for all braces, blocks and bridges. Haven't done Cocobolo yet, so its good news that fish glue works on it.

I did the bathroom test too for a few days. All squeeze out left on the test pieces becomes soft (you can actually wipe it out) very soon because of the humidity - but the actual joint doesn't seem to suffer. I used a big hammer to pound an ebony to Spanish cedar test piece and i got wood failure 100%.

I guess that if a guitar made with fish glue comes apart, it is the owners fault not the glue.

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Build log

Disclaimer: I haven't used fish glue so I'm just guessing

I think alot of people are missing the real reason HHG is so good. It's not just a hard, strong glue. It actually pulls the pieces together as it dries. Could you join a top or back plate with fish glue (or any other glue except HHG) with a few pieces of tape, (no clamps) and have an invisible joint? With LMI white, or Titebond the joint is very noticeable unless you clamp it, at least for me. I believe the "pull" that makes a taped joint look good with HHG also makes other joints more solid. I don't plan on changing glues for bracing, bridges or joining plates, but I've got some fish glue. If I like the way it "acts" I may start closing the box with it.
I done an experiment a couple years ago with HHG, LMI white and Titebond. It wasn't very scientific. I took 1"X4" X 1/8" pieces of spruce cut from the same piece. I glued 2 pieces together with go bars in a dish with a 15' radius. The HHG pieces held the 15' radius. The LMI white pieces held a ~25' radius, and the titebond pieces were almost flat. I'm sure some won't understand my test. If you bend a piece of wood (or anything) the inside section of the bend gets compressed (shrinks), and the outside part gets stretched. By gluing 2 straight pieces together held in a bent position you're gluing a stretched piece to a compressed piece. The tighter the glue joint, the more of the curved shape the glued piece will retain. If there's some sponginess in the joint it will allow the glued pieces to return to their original shape(size). we're not talking about creep, creep takes time, I'm just talking about the effect of a small amount of sponginess in a glue joint. (The heat from HHG might have something to do with the pieces staying curved) I'm going to repeat this sometime, and include fish glue. I'm also going to heat all the pieces to see if that's why the HHG pieces retain their shape.
Has anyone took a fish glue joint apart? I'm guessing steam would work pretty good, but that's just a guess.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I've joined a few tops and backs - spruce, mahogany, koa - with just a rub joint with fish glue. No clamps, no tape, just a well fit rub joint. All are invisible, and still fine.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I use a string and wedge jig .... I have no good reason not to use it to join plates. The joints are invisible, so why not ????

the reason I use fg on coco is that I tested it against tb and the tb lost .... freshly scraped matching pieces, glues fully cured, only clamped with spring clamps. I know others have successfully use tb on cooc, but I simply dont trust it. I have had it fail.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I've done the same tests as Tony....TB, FG, Epoxy on cocobolo.....they all did pretty good, but surprisingly the FG was best in my tests, well, about even with West system epoxy, I was surprised about the epoxy results, it was good just not any better than the fish glue. The TB was good on some pieces and not so good on others. I will say that none of the glues was perfect, even with the FG/Epoxy there were small areas of questionable adhesion, though it did take a severe whack to get the pieces to split apart....I was thinking during the blows, man how would a joint ever fail with this stuff, even with areas of not perfect adhesion.

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Gwaltney Guitars

Fish glue also shrinks as it dries. I have read that glass artists sometimes use it in their work, as the powerful pull of the glue can fracture the surface of glass as it sets. One 'test' I did was to apply some fish glue to one side of a 200 x 200 mm cork tile, and I left it on the bench (it wasn't really an intentional test...). The next day the tile had turned into a shallow bowl, as the glue had shrunk the surface it was applied to. I use a wedge system when I glue up tops and backs so I have no personal experience with rubbed joints with this glue, but I suspect it would work fine.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

That's what I was wondering. Thanks.

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I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said.
http://www.brackettinstruments.com/

I wish we could finally put to bed the old saw that fish glue falls apart if there is a smell of moisture in the atmosphere. From my testing, where the samples were left in our shower-room for more than a month, and where they were not only in a moist atmoshere, but actually had condensation on them regularly, it is no more susceptible than TB or LMI white, or as near as practical, HHG. If your going to keep a guitar in a very moist atmosphere, it's the wood that will deteriorate well before the fish glue.

And yes it is a gelatine based glue just the same as HHG and contracts to form a crystaline structure on drying, the same as HHG does, so it too will pull a joint closer together. There are many top rank European guitar builders who use nothing else, and if I were allowed only one glue then yes it would be fish, but as I live in what passes for a democracy, I can use HHG for braces and bridge and fish for everything else.

So please, no more of the 'fish glu joints fall apart if the air is moist' no it doesn't.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I've been using FG professionally for 6 years now and have not had failure. I live in the Northeast where summer humidity can be oppressive albeit usually only for a week or two. In the beginning I used it for everything. Now I use hide glue for braces and the bridge. Why? Because it is easier to clean up and because it is more reversible than FG in my opinion. I once had to reglue a bride that I used FG on, not because of glue failure, and it was a real PITA to get off. FG does not yield to heat. According to LV, it withstands heat up to 500 oF. It will release with water, but it is easier said than done getting enough water into the joint to release it. I still love it for lamination, gluing linings, rims and yes, the fretboard to the neck.

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Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

Colin,

I think we were posting at the same time and pretty much saying the same thing.

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Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

Every glue (or finish) that dries by evaporation of a vehicle shrinks as it dries.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Would some of you that have so much experience with fish glue care to elaborate on how you use it? For example, I know FG gets tacky fairly quickly......if you try brushing it on do the bristles all stick together where it's difficult to brush? Do you only apply glue to one surface? Do you want a slight amount of squeeze out, or a lot, or what?

The cedar block I glued up last night is very tight and I tried cleaning up some of the remaining squeeze out with a wet rag. Will see what it looks like after the moisture dries off the wood. I put about the same amount of glue on the piece I would have if I were using Titebond and there was a lot of extra glue after spreading so I applied the extra to the other half I was glueing to.....and still had a little squeeze out.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

CF Martin uses Titebond... good enough for me!

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

Darryl, I apply with a platic spreader. As far as squeeze out, treat it just the same as pva glue, just a little squeeze out. The squeeze out can be difficult to clean up once dry, I try to get the squeeze out shortly after it comes out using a slightly damp rag.

IMO opinion the one great quality of fish glue compared to hide is its open time. The drawbacks are its open time, it is a little difficult to clean up, and can be a little more work to reverse - a little extra heat and some moisture are required.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

Where do you guys get your FG besides LV?

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Last week I took a bridge off a guitar which I'll be refinishing this week. It was glued on with fish glue. I had no problems getting it off with basic heat from a cloths iron. No moisture needed, although some would have worked just a bit quicker I think. Took about 10 mins for the glue to soften enough.

I think LV is one place to get a small amount. Norland Products, who make the glue sell it in large quantities only. There was one other place to get it but I can't remember where.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Conservation Resources carries LV's fish glue. They have a presence in the UK and in the US.

http://www.conservationresources.com/Ma ... n34_18.htm

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Aoibeann

Thanks, I've got some on order. You guys have convinced me to try this stuff. Unfortunately Norland has a $25 minimum. Lee Valley and Conservation Resources sell the same thing but LV is cheaper for the 500ml.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"