Official Luthiers Forum!

I don't mean to hog the forum, but I'm on the verge of buying a new Woodmaster drum sander. Along comes Brock who says he's "heard that hook & loop sand paper systems are not the way to go for guitar building" (I hope you don't mind me quoting you, Brock). As far as I recall, I've heard nothing but positive things about the Woodmaster, including from guitar makers. Rick Turner said his worked great for him for years before he made the leap to wide belt. Chas Freeborn told me he loves his. I can't remember now who else gave them high ratings, but there were others.

Anyway, if any other Woodmaster users out there would kindly chime in with their experience, positive or negative, I'd greatly appreciate it. Should I be warned against buying one before it's too late? Is there something to what Brock says he's heard - and is it a problem that is not easily overcome? Or am I going to be with my new Woodmaster?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Not at all. I am curious as well. I hope I am wrong.

I seem to distinctly recall Larry Davis from Gallery Hardwoods (maybe here, maybe at the MIMF) saying he had problems with hook and loop systems, but I am not sure if that was specific to his sander, or the entire h&L system. I also remember others chiming in with similar experiences.

Trust me... I hope I am wrong, that looks like a great sander.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Todd,
I owned one for a few years before I bought a Grizzly Wide-belt. Before the Woodmaster, I owned a Performax 22-44. The only negative to the Woodmaster is the hook and loop system. This isn't a big deal at all for surfacing tops, backs, sides, etc... but I found it to be slightly frustrating when sanding binding or purfling. I make my own purfling (4 strips at 0.040") and if there is even a couple thousands of an inch variance it can show at the joints. A couple thousands of an inch variance on the top, back, sides, etc... just isn't a big deal.

The trouble with the hook and loop system is that the machine will keep taking off more at each pass at the same height. So you have to get a feel for when to stop. I was able to achieve almost the exact thickness I was aiming for by stopping about 0.005" above the desired thickness and passing the pieces thru an additional 3x. It always seemed that there was about a .003" to 0.005" buffer that you need to take into account. Once again, this didn't slow me down at all when I was sanding tops and backs -- but when you have dozens of small purfling pieces, I just found that it wasn't there was just to much "wiggle room". However, I am talking about achieving a tolerance of under 0.002" with wood. Even with my wide-belt, I have to nudge my way to the final thickness. But it is much easier with the wide-belt than the Woodmaster.

Aside from the nuances of working with the hook and loop, the WoodMaster is lightyears ahead of the Performax. It almost approaches wide-belt capabilities in terms of resin on the belts. Once you hit 150 grit, then the much larger sanding area of the wide-belt comes into focus -- but with something like 80 grit, I found that I could sand stuff like Cocobolo and Indian Rosewood for quite a long time before having to clean the paper. In this regard, it is much, much better than Performax and the other drum sanders.

Feel free to give me a call at 386 690-2567 if you want a more detailed opinion. For what its worth, even with the nuances of the hook and loop system. I would recommend it any day over a Performax.

--
Simon

Thanks a lot, Simon. That's helpful. Which Grizzly wide belt did you get? How do you like it?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I just searched the archives here (haven't searched any other forums yet) and found only enthusiastically positive comments about the Woodmaster. Simon's comments here about the challenge of thicknessing bindings and purfs to precise tolerances are the only not-so-positive comments I've found so far. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, Simon, but it sounds like this was an issue that made it slower and more challenging to get the exact thicknesses you want, but not impossible. I'm pretty good at working with the limitations of a machine and finessing things to get the results I need, so that doesn't concern me too much. Besides, I currently don't make my own purfs (or I make them out of veneers that are already thicknessed). I do make bindings, but I can't see this really being an issue, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

I can probably find this info elsewhere, Simon, but did you find you could easily thickness short pieces like bridge blanks on your Woodmaster?

A wide belt sander isn't an option for me in the foreseeable future, due to considerations of both cost and shop space. Given that, it still looks to me like I can't do any better than the Woodmaster.

Thanks -

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I'd be interested in knowing more about the hook and loop too. I think Michalel Payne had considered converting his Performax
over last year but never heard how that worked out for him. I've been contemplating doing so with my Performax 16-32. I actually
bought the Drum Sander Kit from Stockroom Supply about 4 years ago and never built the kit because I got my Performax on
sale at a time that it was in my budget to buy. Thus the kit is sitting in the corner....... still It is a hook and loop system and
I have yet to determine what I want to build out of it.

This is what they say at SrS regarding a conversion which explains somewhat about how the H&L functions.
"Can I convert my existing Drum Sander to hook and loop?

Yes, you can, but be prepared that converting your Drum Sander over to the hook and loop fastening system is going to change everything you have been taught about how to sand with your drum sander. All drum sanders are designed to pinch the sandpaper between the drum and the wood in order to cut. This is what creates heat. Heat then breaks down the resins in the wood, allowing the sandpaper to load up and burn the finish. Also, hook and loop conversion CANNOT withstand heat. It is mad from plastic and if it heats up, it will melt. When you have the hook and loop system on your drum, you need to change the way you have your drum set up in order to prevent heat from building up. With the hook and loop system, when the drum is turned on, the paper actually lifts off the drum. This is called centrifugal force and it is the basis behind making hte hook and loop system work for you. You will want to set your drum up so that the drum is not touching the wood, but when you turn your drum on, centrifugal force will lift the paper off the drum to allow it to sand. You may have to change this adjustment depending on which grit you have on your sander. This will leave an air gap beween the drum and paper preventing heat build up. This is a completely different concept than most people are accustomed to, but is the only way to make the hook and loop system work. People either love this system or hate it. The ones who hate it are the ones who cannot understand this new concept. The ones who love it will never go back. Also, when switching to this system, we recommend using 80 grit sandpaper and finer. Any coarser and the sandpaper causes too much drag and the sandpaper causes too much drag and the sandpaper sometimes comes unhooked."

I'm interested in the Woodmaster too since It has been on my "nice to have" list for about 4 years now and if the H&L setup
works well enough, seems like it would be a dream for quick changes of the grit.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Very interesting, Bill. Thanks for posting that. What's SrS?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I've had a Woodmaster since 2003 or so and have never looked back. If I had the 10k for a decent wide belt I'd look at one, but for the money the WM is a champ. The performax, etc are little more than toys.
The H&L does take a little getting used to, but once you've got the hang of it it's a breeze. Paper changes take only a minute or so. When I've got fresh abrasive I'll take a couple of passes, shut down and re-stretch to take up slack from the paper stretching.
As said, to get to final thickness with precision you'll want to get within .05 or so then send through at the same setting. I thickness sand my braces to exactly the width of the router bit I use for the X slotting.
For sanding very thin or narrow stock I put it on a backer board (which I've run through to eliminate any thickness variation side to side) with a couple of dots of double stick tape. I have sanded veneers down to .10 with this method. For very narrow material I'll gang them together (side by side) and put a sacrificial piece on each outboard edge.
Last and by no means least is that WM is an American made product and when you call them a person answers the phone who really knows what they're talking about. For me customer support is huge. I don't have the time to sit on hold while a lackey fumbles around looking in the same user manual I've got.
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Sorry Todd I should have clarified. Srs = Stockroom Supply and H&L which I suspect you already gathered is hook & loop.

And Chas,
Thanks for the info on that. I suspected it is simply a matter of a learning curve. Much appreciated And same as you I find
great value in American made products with excellent customer support. This is why my (and I'm sure Todd's) interest in the
Woodmaster.

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!

Thanks, Chas, for your input. Very helpful and much appreciated.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I searched the MIMF archives to see if I could find anything about people having problems with either the Woodmaster or with hook & loop paper attachment systems in general, and couldn't find anything. I did find a few more very positive reports on the Woodmaster.

I checked the specs again and found that it can sand workpieces as short as 7". They say the minimum thickness is "0", and in their promotional video, they show a guy sanding a very thin veneer with no backer board. I don't doubt you guys have found you get the best results with a backer board on thin stock, but I thought that was interesting nonetheless.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hmmmm - cool discussion. One of these days I'll have to convert my Performax to H&L and see how I like it.

At the moment I am running the really resinous stuff through a thickness planer on a backing board and just skimming it with the drum sander at the very end.

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The member formerly known as erikbojerik....

There is a tad bit of cousin effect with hook and loop. taking big bites it shows up but if you take your time and don't try to hog of too much the hook and loop is just as consistent as flat wrapped from my experience. I have my 16-32 converted to hook and loop I use it almost exclusively for final top and back thicknessing. My 10-20 is left as is with flat roll drum set up I use it for rough sanding stock. I love the hook and loop. you do need to allow the roll to heat a stretch then re-roll tight again to get it to be accurate but that no big deal.

Cousin effect? I'm already blessed with a lot of great cousins...

Seriously, Michael, thanks for your input, but what's a cousin effect?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Michael's lightning fast typing leads to a few typos, so I believe he means "cushion" effect of the velcro. I'm betting that one reason that they are so popular is that same cushion effect, which also acts as a cooler for the paper. You can't put as much pressure on your piece of work and hog off wood like you could with the hard surface drum, but because you use less pressure and let the paper do the work, you get less loading and resin build-up on the paper, which makes it last longer. Maybe, more passes, but longer lasting paper, and less smoke! Just my thinking on something I know nothing about.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

One thing i am curious about- how do the hook and loop sanders do when sanding something with dissimilarly hard sections, like a top with a rosette, or even spruce with heavy bearclawing? I have avoided them for fear that the squishyness would result in the harder to sand sections ending up like mini islands, people seem to like them so i pretty much assume i am wrong, but does anyone have any experience with this?

P.S. Todd, is a performax 25 or 25/2 off your list, and why? Those are great machines, and can be found used for pretty cheap. Just curious.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Cousin affect a compression affect cause by the compression and rebound of the hook and loop attachment it is not much but it is there

I final sand all my top with the rosetts inlayed and have had no issues. Speed is key. too fast and you will get som burning and resin build up.

Thanks for a perspective based on actual experience!

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

I've owned an older Woodmaster for approx 4 years(bought used), I've never had any problems with the hook and loop system, it's a pretty good sander though mine will sand the ends a bit thinner than the rest of the piece. Yeah I'd love to have the Grizzly 18" wide belt sander but the Woodmaster is not a bad machine, a bit slow, but a good quality machine.

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Gwaltney Guitars

I don't own a Woodmaster but I have hook & loop on my General dual drum and it is not a problem at all. You learn that when your getting close, do a lot of checking. It's not like you dial in a certain thickness and go for it anyway, that's not how thickness sanders work. I say if you have a good deal in works, go for it.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I too have an older Woodmaster 26". I bought it used and had a few issues to deal with initially. Mine did not have the hook and look when I got it but I bought the hook and loop stuff from Grizzly and some extra paper. I haven't had any issues thus far. I am sure I have not run anywhere near the materials that some of the other guys have however.

One issue I am currently having with it is that when I'm running some stock through, even taking less than 1/64th off, the belt will slow down dramatically. I think that the previous owner had left it outside and it may be that the platen has some rust on it and it's grabbing. So I don't think that's a problem with the Woodmaster, just mistreatment of the machine.

Darrin

I have a Woodmaster 18" sander and it works well for the cost. I agree with everything that has been said about taking a few extra final passes to make sure everything is flat. I will say that I have used the 18" Grizzly widebelt sander and it is light years ahead of the Woodmaster but it is also many times the cost. If you can deal with the machine being a little slow and having to take extra passes I am sure you will find it will produce good results.

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Brad
Avon, OH

It sounds like you've had good experience with the Performax, Jordan. Glad to hear it. It could be that I'd be happy with one of those as well. From what I've been able to gather, the Woodmaster seems to stand out as the best option in drum sanders. 5HP motor, 6" diameter drum (which means less clogging and longer lasting abrasive), excellent dust extraction, rubber/nylon conveyor belt, seriously heavy duty construction, easy sandpaper changes, good customer service/support, lots of very good reviews (e.g. Fine Woodworking, which rated it best of the bunch)...

I'm sure it's slow compared to a wide belt, but, from what I gather, it's much faster than the Performax or other drum sanders.

The Woodmasters are on sale until the end of April. Very good prices, including $300 worth of sandpaper thrown in, AND they're giving me a big cut on the freight charge to get it here, just because I had the nerve to ask for an even sweeter deal.

Thanks again to everybody else for all your input. My concerns are put to rest, and I'll be ordering my new Woodmaster within the next few days.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Let us know how the Woodmaster works out for you Todd. And thanks for starting this thread, it's been another good one

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Bill Hodge


One does not simply, own enough guitars!