Official Luthiers Forum!

First, this post is not to disparage ,insult, or mock anyone ,kudos to anyone that can get top dollar for their work! I think it is a valid question . which is . what is a guitar worth ? I mean beyond the "whatever you can get for it " what gives a guitar its value ? Playability ? tone? tonewoods ?bling? the maker?
top quility materials carry a price for sure
we all want a guitar that is easy to play so I would think playability has an important place in the realm of pricing. but there is a physical lmit to how low the action can be , which many builders have attained.
tone is a good thing to have also,which may be ranked above playability . but who defines a good tone? and there certainly are limits to the varying qualities of tone and projection , which again many builders are on the edge of the parameters of.
bling? well there is alot to be said for asthetics and tastily done appointments.
the maker? I have heard of a west coast maker getting in the range of $25,000.00 for a build . but I realy wonder if one of his guitars was placed in a room with the work of other skilled luthiers, with out revealing the builders. would his guitars stand out as having so much more value ? would players realy be able to recognise the $ 25,000.00 guitar if it didnt have his name on it ? especialy when placed in proximity of works by lesser reknowned, world class luthiers?
and on the other hand I have heard of a very benevolent, and acclaimed luthier from the east coast ,( with a ten year waiting list) that reportedly sells his guitars for less than $ 1,000.00. even though one can often find his work on ebay going for tens of thousands of dollars.
martin and taylor have several professional quality instruments in the $2,000.00 $3,000.00 range, which sell, even though there are hand builders that exceed their playability and tone in the same price range. we live in an era where name branding has reached the realm of idolitry in many cases. many players " want a martin" like the name itself is enough to guarantee an heirloom acquisition. we ( builders) know they have had their problems over the years, and maybe two out of ten martins or taylors, have that special something . . I tell people there are many hand builders out there that build better guitars than martin or taylor , and they stare back at me with a blank look, like either I am crazy, or I just popped a huge bubble!
so apparently marketing has its place in the realm of evaluation.
so I mentioned two extrme circumstances. certainly there is a basic value for a hand built guitar , but what gives a guitar it's worth ? Jody

The answer isn't in the guitars, it's in the people who buy them. This is a psychology question not a guitar construction question.

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Jeremy Douglas

interesting answer jeremy , something I had not thought of... but still the builder has some responsibilty in pricing his/her work. i mean does it all boil down to salesmanship? jody

I agree with Jeremy - totally psychic value.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
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I don't think it's totally psychological. That would be selling the builder short. God did not give us all the same talent, and skills. And well as we have all went about honing those skills differently. There are massive differences in build quality between builders. I wish I had the talent that some guys do. I've had to attempt to make up for it with a lot of experience and hard work. I finally feel like I'm coming into my own and reaching a level where I'm comfortable comparing my work both tonally and build wise with anyone. It's taken me 13 years to get here, and I've seen guys get to the same place in half that time.

Once a builder reaches the level of work where you find the top notch guitars, then it becomes much more preference and style. But also hype, marketing, luck. There is a psychological aspect of it, butht doesn't normally come into play until the quailty of the guitars are very high across the board.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Build quality and tone are the cost of entry in to the field and I don't mean to sell these builders short. It's hard hard work to get to the point where your instruments look professional and have the tone to compete at the highest level but that's not what explains the difference in selling price of guitars of similar quality.

In Jody's example, he mentioned one builder that sells for $25k and anther that sells for <$1000 but re-sale is way higher. I don't know which builders he's talking about but lets assume that the build quality is similar. At that point the artistry and 'magic/voodo' take over. Basically it's fashion at that point. What makes one dress with $500 in materials cost $75k and another $10k? Why do funny looking Picassos cost a mint? Psychic value.

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jody,

i think we've been around this question a bunch of times in the last few years. but because there are so many ways to ask it, we might have a tough time finding the discussions in the archives.

i think your post raises questions and realizations that all hobby builders eventually come to. we know the cost of materials that go in to a guitar. we eventually learn to make guitars that sound great and play great. and with a bit more time can even make them look okay. but then we can't figure out what in the world would make my guitar worth $1500 to my friends, a reputable builder's guitar worth $4500 to quite a few people, and a half dozen builder's guitar worth $20,000 to others.

while i mostly agree with jeremy and andy that the extra value of the ultra-high-end guitars is in the head of the buyer, i also know that the extra value is also in the business savy and good luck of the builder. the ultra-high-end builders have had their guitars picked up at just the right time by the right players, and have cranked up their prices at just the right time, to create a huge desire and demand for something of which not much is available. good luck, and good business, and some guts to keep cranking up the price. finding the price ceiling for ones product, without being perceived as greedy or out of line, is a tricky business. and a small handful of very talented guitar builders have been able to do this tricky business very well.

and like i've posted in other similar threads: if the world has a bunch of millionaires who grew up playing in garage bands and are now looking for ways to spend their money, i'm more than happy for the guitar makers who get some of it and get to do what they love to do.

phil

I don't think that you can define an objective measure of the value of a guitar. You brought up most of the issues in your original post. When customers can't agree on what constitutes good tone or aesthetics, how can you make a concrete judgment?

There are, however, characteristics of an instrument that most people will see as important to get right. These are the structural elements and the fit and finish elements. Even the fit and finish elements can vary a lot if the builder has a reputation for good tone. The is especially true in the classical guitar business. I've seen $25,000 classical guitars that I would be ashamed to sell because the French polish was so poorly applied. The classical guitar community took that as a badge that the guitar was fully custom made.

The cost of the materials is a component but it does not directly affect the value of the guitar. It is possible to take a $1,000 set of Brazilian rosewood and make a $500 guitar out of it.

Demand

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I think this is accurate. As for starting out, I think attractive aesthetics and tone will be the driving factors in getting a guitar's value up and starting to build a reputation for the builder. But the builder's guitars aren't going to skyrocket in value (above say 3 to 5k) until their reputation slowly makes it happen. And that's where Phil's comments about savvy in building demand come in.

As for 25k guitars, I don't know whether they're all better than the 4 to 10k instruments. But for what it's worth, a professional player who's been around a long while and knows Pat Donohue says Pat's Somogyi is the best guitar he's ever heard.

There are objective differences between guitars but the value of those differences is subject to demand which is of course caused by human want. When you get down to it even the value of cheap guitars is driven by human perception.

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Jeremy Douglas

The market and demand from a particular Luthier will determine the value of their guitars. If Linda Manzer, Mark Beneteau or Micheal Geenfield for example can get high prices and have multi year waiting lists, their prices are not too high for the market. If their waiting lists start to get shorter, the next price increase of their work may not happen so soon. A reputation as a great builder will certainly not hurt ones price. Material and complexity of the build will cause some increase in the price, eg. Brazilian Rosewood, as it is expensive to get and not as stable so can increase the chance of returns for warranty work. Extra inlay or a cutaway can add a lot of labor cost as it all takes time to do.

So I guess the answer is ask a high price and take what you can get, if the price is too high the market will not be there for ones work.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

I would also say "value to who?"

A collector values a name and some specific vintage more than anything else. For those folks.... it doesn't matter much what it sounds like -- playing it might scratch it up... and ruin it.

Some folks listen with their eyes.... so the most valuable one is a thing of beauty...
Super curly wood, Extra fancy inlays.... Their name on the fretboard....

Some folks listen with their ears... so they want the one that has the *Sound*

Some very advanced players want something *They* can make sound how they want it to sound.... etc...

like... for example.... What is a Retopped Esteban guitar worth? Is it worth *More* than a regular Esteban... Or.... Less than a regular Esteban...

Thanks

John

There's another way to look at this....and I direct this comment squarely at a 25,000 dollar guitar...and I know who this is. I've read every article I can get my hands on that mentions the name Somogyi. He's someone to pay attention to.

Any guitar......ANY custom made acoustic guitar that is not vintage....that manages to separate someone from 25k of their money.....HAS to be something spectacular. There's just simply no other way to put it. I suppose you could blame it on drugs or drinks if you wanted to travel way out to the far reaches of what's possible...but that ain't the case. Especially when you throw in the fact that it wasn't just ONE guitar he sold for that price.

Think about it.

I'll say one other thing....let's say it's all voodoo...I'll be the first in line to soak it all up.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Not always demand. Sometimes the price goes up to create the demand. It's the scarcity principle of persuasion.

Scarcity is the vehicle for demand.The big three are gearing up for it right now as did harley davidson to save there companies.It works!

Demand for fashion is usually fueled by psychic value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
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I really enjoyed that link, Andy. I'm hoping to get Malcom Gladwell's Tipping Point soon, which I believe may be similar.

I think we're hearing a lot of things in this thread that all come together in all custom guitars, but especially in the really expensive ones. There's a phenomenal level of craftsmanship involved; Brazilian and Euro spruce are the standard woods; there's the psychological piece Andy mentions . . . A few years ago in Healdsburg, Jeff Traugott said, "You're not selling a guitar, you're selling an experience.

Yeah demand for a excellant instrument. #1 Tone/sound, #2 playability , #3 Looks. You're not going to get #1 & #2 without good construction abilities and good materials and craftmanship. #1 is the result of material choices and knowing how to construct them and shape them into an instrument producing that great tone. #2, If you have the skill to achieve #1 then I can't see you not being able tomake a good playing guitar. #3 is where you get to get into a more artistic area as it gives you some visual aspects that you can express yourself but is the least important. I'm not talking the looks of the craftmanship here. Appointments and Glossy finish and the such. I'm not saying finish isn't important as it's involved in acheiving #1. But #3 is what most people seem to go by which aren't educated in that #1 is #1. But #3 takes a lot of time and skill to produce and can make the instrument also a work of art. If you look at these $25K instruments I think you will see that they do fall in to that catagory. Having excelled in #1 and #2 and #3. Now weather people who buy these are aware of this or not, who knows?
When I go to music stores and see someone trying to figure out what guitar they like and hear the sales person giving them their rap. Well when they leave I'll ask the person ( cute blonde) which tone do they like the best? Then I ask her which one do they like the feel of the best? I think I like the tone of that one a little better,what do you think? And I like the way this one plays as the neck isn't as wide. I'll say," well that one(J-45) is a $1000 less with the thinner neck." And then she says," Well it's not that I don't really like the way it sounds. But that one looks like the one Jewel plays."

I'll have to check that out. I still haven't gotten "outliers" but I really should. Maybe after reading it I won't be so lazy.



Heck yea.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

when you start and people order your guitars you may break even , as you get more and more known , the price goes up. It doesn't happen overnight. Dave Nichols can get $20000 plus for a guitar and over $7500 for a manolin , he is doing something right.
Build the guitar you like and if it is marketable , they will be a success. Demand and supply will dictate the market value.
john hall

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Certainly there are many things that will affect the price of a given guitar. In my opinion, market values are driven by percieved value. People pay what they percieve things are worth. It is perception that is driven by supply, demand, reputation, psychology, skill or anything else. This is why so many people can be taken in by scams where false information is given. The supply is not really scarce and the value is not really there but someone has mocked up a scenario that causes someone to percieve a particular value. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a $30,000 guitar isn't worth it. I would like to own one!! The builders that are getting these prices have obviously put in their time and achieved extraordinary levels of building skills. But this affects perception. How else would you get a builder with extraordinary skill selling his guitars for $1500 when they go for $30,000 at auction?

Hi All,

This is one topic I've always tried to stay away from, because it's one that perplexes me. I've seen work of other builders... in a guitar shop for $3K, and had the owner of the shop play my guitar with favorable feedback, but since I was a "no-body", he couldn't sell my work.

I build because I like to. If I end up with 5 guitars... so be it. I have built 6, only kept my first one, sold all the others (including one on e-bay), made all my materials and expenses back and was proud of the fact some folks out there are playing my guitars. I'm leaving something on this earth when I gone.

I don't go in for that "$5-20K means there's something right about it". Well heck, of course there's something right about it, but NOTHING more right than a top end Taylor, Martin or Gibson except some dude did everything by hand, doesn't own a thickness sander or use anything that was made CNC. And he's got a NAME, the same kind of name that causes the very rich to buy Bentley's instead of VW's. Good for him. But don't ponder on why, build yours, make a few bucks if you want, put your work out into the world, be happy and build another one!

Dave

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God, Family, Carreer

Funnily enough, i actually think many handmade instruments are 'underpriced' - and thus represent excellent value. Quality materials, experience a +100 hours + of skilled labour and $3000-$5000 is suddenly a good price for the player, if not for the builder, but as others have said the final price is then dictated by supply and demand - that very basic economic principle.

And pro guitar players have actually had it fairly good - think of the choice and quality you can get for $3000-$5000...compared to say a Cellist or violinist for a pro standard instrument.

The factor that is perhaps more subjective is 'reputation' - in most cases thoroughly deserved, but takes years to establish - and also does need some lucky breaks - patronage from a 'highly skilled name player' will often create greater demand, but the quality has to be there in the first place. Then you get the issue of a 'cult' following; some mysticism thatsurrounds a maker that again increases demand and usually price.

BUt considering that in most cases it takes years and a huge amount of talent to get so good that your instruments have a certain mystique, usually years spent struggling financially, its perhaps a just reward.

As someone who just loves guitars, plays very averagely, it truely is now a golden era as the choice and variety of design and tone and excellent quality of craftsmanship make choosing the most difficult decision at any given price point.

For the pro builders, having those that can command such huge premiums is probably a good thing long term as guitar players become more accustomed to paying a more appropriate rate for fine craftsmanship, as their classical cousins have done for years. This may help builders get a more realistic and appropraite return for thier craftsmanship.