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I'm attempting to fret a FB with this gold fretwire from LMI, and I'm having some trouble. After cutting my fret slots with one of Shane's fret slotting blades, a .024" feeler gauge fits snugly in. The edges of the slot are lightly beveled with a 3 corner file. The total width of the tang on this wire, including the barbs, is .032", but, oddly, the frets seem to go in the slots too easily and they won't stay down.

Closely examining the barbs, I see that they are visibly smaller than the barbs on a couple of different StewMac fretwires I have. They feel really tiny, too - my thumbnail barely catches on them if I "scratch" downward from the crown to the bottom of the tang, whereas it catches easily on the StewMac wire barbs. So, that seems like part of the problem. I'm still puzzled, though, by the fact that the frets seem like a too-loose fit in the slot as I'm tapping them in, because the total width of the tang/barbs is the same (within .0005", anyway) as the StewMac wire, which hasn't given me this trouble.

In any case, they just will not stay down. I've got the wire bent (in my fret bender) to a very slightly tighter radius than the radius of the FB, and the frets pop right back up in the middle (just a little, but, obviously, anything less than tight to the board is no good). I can push them down tight with a piece of wood, and they just boing right back up when I release the pressure, like they're just not holding to the walls of the slot. Then, when I pull them back out, they come out too easily, too.

.032" barb width in a .024" slot, and this is happening...??

This is the second FB I've done with this wire, and I had similar problems with the first one (which was ebony, by the way; this one is Madagascar rosewood). That time I solved it with gobs of superglue and holding the frets in while the glue cured. I had bent the fretwire to a tighter radius that time, and I thought that was my main problem. This wire is definitely stiffer than normal wire. This time, as I said, I bent the wire so it's just slightly tighter than the FB radius, and still no go.

What gives?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, I've used Evo wire with pre-slotted fingerboard from LMI. Its slotted at .023" and it works real fine. The tang width on Evo is .020 so the stud width of .032 should make for a nice fit, at least that's been my experience.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

I had this problem once with the silver LMI wire of the same dimensions as the EVO gold. My problem was beveling the slots a bit too much. I now do 1 light stroke with my three corner file to just break the corners on the slot. My boards with the EVO Gold done this way worked out fine.

Steve

Todd-

Time for one of those fret tang expanders--you won't know how you got along w/o it.

I'll be back in touch inre: transducer install stuff.

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https://soundcloud.com/jeffreylsuits/he ... -runnin-13

Todd, my experience is exactly the same at Steve W. I used a LMI slotted board and had perfect fit all except one fret. I use a very light pass with a tri-file to bevel the edge minimally, fret with a fretting hammer off of the neck and on a concrete floor. I used it at the radius as shipped. Your situation doesn't make sense to me either.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Todd,

I used one of Shane's slotting blades and had no problem with the very same wire you are using but you do need to be careful. The EVO wire from LMI not only has a narrow tang, but it's quite short as well and the barbs are higher up on the tang. As others have mentioned, you need to be very careful not to make the relief in the slots too deep or the barbs have nothing to grip.

I know that you are probably well aware of this but for any noobs it is very important to only do a single pass across the blade when slotting in a tablesaw jig, if you pull the fretboard back over the blade you 'will' widen the slot and you don't want to be doing that.

Cheers

Kim

Thanks a lot for all the input. I think you guys have hit the nail on the head - or should I say you hit the fret on the crown. I do believe I beveled the slots too much. I hadn't noticed that the tang on this wire is shorter and the barbs are higher. Sure enough, that's a fact. Combine that with the teensy-weensyness of the barbs, and it's clear that the slots need to be prepared with extra care. I beveled the same amount I always do, but, apparently, that's too much for this wire. From now on, just one stroke with the file.

BTW, I do not pull the FB back over the blade after making the cut. The teeth of Shane's blade measure .0235" thick. Although I do use stiffeners on it, I think it's to be expected that a tiny bit of vibration in the blade would cause the kerf to end up .0005" (a mere half of a thousandth) wider than the blade itself. Anyway, I don't think the .024" slot itself should cause any problems.

I may not have time to work on this board any more until Monday, but when I get the problem solved, I'll report back.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

My question is, why the higher smaller tangs on the evo wire? What's the purpose of that? Seems to me that would cause the very problem we are discussing here.Shame on them for making them like that.Seems like a disaster waiting to happen on a maple board.

I agree that it would seem better if the tang were longer and the barbs bigger, like on other common fretwires, but I also take full responsibility for my error, and don't want to give the impression that I'm complaining about the wire. I like the color and the hardness of this wire, and, once I get used to using it, I'm sure it will be fine.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hmmm, I've used this wire on a recent build and everything went fine, so I didn't even notice any of the issues presented here. Maybe because I forgot to bevel the slots? Now I'll know for next time. I do like this EVO fret wire and I'll be using it again.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I don't know about the wire but when I freted this last Madagascar board my frets were going in easy and the barbs didn't seem to hold to my liking. Seemed to me the wood wasn't hard enough for the barbs to set in. I had to size the fret slots. I put Johnsons paste wax on each side of the slot. I put med. CA in the slot and ran a feeler gage blade back and forth so that the CA coated the sides of the slot but not fill it and remove the excess. Accelerated the slot and removed the wax and any CA and pressed in the frets. The one mistake was using the wax on the Mad board. I should have put electrical tape on each side of the fret slot and just removed the tape and clean up any dried excess with a file. I also scraped the slot bottom and vacuumed it out before pressing the frets. It really stiffened the walls of the slot allowing the barbs to really grab. I don't know if this will be of any help to you or not.
Gold wire? I'll have to give that look. That should look nice on the MR board.

That's interesting, Chris. Maybe there is something about the Mad rosewood that exacerbated my problem (although I don't think hardness, per se, should be an issue with Mad rosewood as a FB wood). Anyway, I haven't had time yet to work on it, but my plan is to do something very similar to what you did, using medium or thick CA. I'm not going to worry about getting it on the surface of the board; I'm just going to re-sand the board. I'd like to remove a bit of wood, anyway, as that will help correct my original mistake of beveling the slots too much. I've got plenty of board thickness and plenty of depth to the slots.

This fretwire doesn't look super gold on the board. It's fairly subtle. But it is very handsome, especially on certain woods, and nicely compliments the bronze of the strings. I used copper wire for the side dots on this one, which also look great with the Mad rosewood, ebony FB binding, and mahogany purfs, as well as the gold fretwire (which has copper in it, actually, not gold).

Thanks for your input -

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Maybe your board is a little spongy? How does it feel? I have a Mad rose FB (the most expensive type with black lines) that is extremely light, measured to about 620Kg/m3 which is something between mahogany and maple...It does feel a little less solid than regular rosewood. I actually cut it in pieces to make extra light bridges for my future flamenco guitars.

I wouldn't say my board is a rare accident, i heard several others saying Madagascar rw varies a great deal.

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Build log

So the gold wire has a little more copper content then normal german silver brass. I'm guess you are also using those ebony and gold tuners with this guitar. Sounds like something up my alley.
My board and bridge have the black stripes in them. I thought that was how all Mad RW looked? I ordered the blanks from LMI and had no idea what Mad RW looked like. I really like the color of it. But spongy seems to be a good word for it.
I got the sizing technic from Dan Erlewine's fretting tapes along with everything else I know about fretting. Dan seems to have fretting and setup down. If you haven't seen the tapes and get a chance too don't pass it up.

I've used EVO on a number of refrets, and recently fretted a new neck with a Watkins board, and haven't noticed any problems. I press frets, and always glue, and I use the Jescar wire for the nickel and stainless as well, which I believe has the same tang, so it may just be what I'm more used to.

The larger crown Jescar wires (company that makes the EVO wire) does have a larger barb and more closely spaced. I'm not entirely sure of the reasoning - likely because they supply almost all the major US guitar manufacturers, and most of the sizes are probably based on certain manufacturers requested specs.

I think it's especially beautiful on instruments with gold hardware. It really doesn't look very gold once polished, though still has a gold hue when viewed in the right light or angle. Accompanying gold hardware though, it just does a wonderful job to play down that harsh silver/gold contrast that has always bothered me. It takes just enough of the stark silver off to play as a wonderful compliment, seeming to soften the gold hardware a bit rather than drawing attention to itself.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I have the content written down somewhere, but don't know if I can readily find it. I'm not sure if it has more copper or not, but it is nickel free, and does contain a bit of titanium. It was originally an alloy created in Europe for eyeglasses, in response to cautions and regulations about nickel allergies (a bit ironic, as no metal in eyeglasses every really touch the skin).

It is a bit harder than standard nickel/silver wire, somewhere between nickel and stainless. Great stuff in my opinion, and I try to stock it in all sizes they make it in.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Jescar, have a couple of sizes of EVO wire. The mid size not listed on LMI's site is around .090 across the crown and has a larger tang more like, but not exactly the same as that od their Stainless and Nickle wires of the same crown widths. Folks should be aware that the smaller size EVO, the one that is stocked by LMI and listed for acoustic guitars, has a crown width of .080 (although the LMI Website states .074). The tang on this smaller wire is indeed shorter and narrower than that of the .090 wires.

There is nothing wrong with this by the way, it's all very good wire, you just need to keep this fact in mind when your setting up the fretboard tis all.

Cheers

Kim

I have a stack of Mad rose FB and bridge blanks and most of them are of similar density, and feel pretty much like a hard, heavy rosewood. I found one bridge blank in the bunch, though, that's much lighter than the rest, and set that one aside for an upcoming build that will especially benefit from a lightweight bridge. All the bridge blanks ring beautifully - with a particularly rich sound - and the light one sounds pretty much like the rest of them.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks, David and Kim, for your input. Much appreciated. Do either of you (or anybody else) have a source for these wires that you'd be willing to recommend? I'd like to try the mid-size one that Kim mentioned.

David, do you have a preferred glue for fretting a new board? I'm thinking of trying fish glue for this one after I get the slots fixed up with CA, since it reportedly bonds metal to wood. Thanks again.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hey Todd, I'll be fretting a guitar with this wire this week. I'm glad I read your post. I'm sorry that I can't offer you any help but I have read some replies here that might help me. One thing; have you noticed the EVO wire to be brittle?
[size=85]I'll let you know [size=150]what I find[size=150] after I complete [/size]the fret job.[/size] Thanks for your post - Byron[/size]

I pestered David Collins by pm for an answer to my glue question, and he replied that all he ever uses now is CA, wicked in after the frets are in. He did concur, though, that fish glue bonds wood to metal very well. Just thought some of you might be interested in his response.

Now, Byron, to reply to your question. I haven't experienced anything in the EVO wire that I would describe as "brittle". It is noticeably stiffer than typical nickel silver fretwire. When I run it through my fret bender, it comes out with a much bigger radius bend than if I run nickel silver wire through at the same setting on the bender. Hesh has posted about his latest guitar on which he used the EVO wire, with his comments on it - all positive.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Take a piece of EVO, grab it near the tip of a pair of needle nose pliers, and try to bend it sideways in a sharp curve. Stainless and nickel you can bend 180 degrees in a 1/4" radius and they take it. EVO will snap before you reach 90. Even when you cut it with end nippers you can tell it feels different. Unlike the feel of the cutters pinching and shearing all the way through on nickel or stainless, the EVO feels like it snaps before the cutters shear all the way through. Even against a file it seems to feel a bit different.

I've snapped it and tried to study the fracture patter under a loop, but of course since I know absolutely nothing about metallurgy I can't say what anything I saw meant. It is weird stuff though. I talked to Jeff Silver at Jescar about it, and he wasn't quite sure at the time what to make of it either. The drawing, rolling, tempering process is pretty much the same, so it's likely just a peculiar property of the alloy. It doesn't come in to play within the normal range of how you use the wire though, so it's more just a casual observation than one with any real impacts. Interesting though...

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.