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Hi all.

I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, but searching the forum (and the entire web for that matter) did not give the answer I was looking for. Feel free to point me to a thread that covers this already.

All things being equal, what would be the difference in tone between a cedar top and a spruce top? (Assuming the cedar would be a little thicker than the spruce one, of course...)

Thanks a lot!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

cedar soft round sound with more dings in it than the brighter spruce top.

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

Cedar in my opinion is a warmer more rounded tone. Trebles seem to have less sparkle than spruce but more color. Cedar seems to produce a more intimate sound but a bit less energetic sound. Being finger style player I like it for ballads. But then again I also like the bell like ring of Spruce for some music equally as well

First of all, I like both. In my experience, all else the same (including thickness), cedar I get a noticably louder ringing tone, spruce more accurate, controlled.

Thats, interesting I'm guessing it's all in the mind really, I'm not a big cedar fan, and am a fingerstyle player too, friend who have decent cedar topped guitars seem to love them for a while then say 3-5 years later change back to spruce I've 3 friends who've done so, but I've never played a custom cedar topped instrument

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

I'm with John.
As a general rule I prefer Spruce.
However every now and then a cedar top guitar comes along that defies my own pretensions, and I decide that i like it.

I always associate spruce with bright trebbles, warmth and youthfulness.

Cedar I associate with cooler tones, roundness, strong bottom end projection.
Also depends on bracing: Traditional can sound highly refined with cedar, whereas lattice can sound a bit skin to plastic to my ear. Trebbles remind me of a child hitting something with a nylon or plastic hammer.

Cedar with lattice bracing can be quite bright in the trebbles, which can balance out the strong bottom end projection.

I think it sll comes dorwn to personal preference.

Go with what you like, and what works for your particular style.

Cheers,
Claire

Thanks a lot for your input guys. They are much appreciated!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Stiffness(in all directions),weight and dryness.
Strings,bridge weight,brace weight and stiffness.

I like them both !
BUT if I had to have only one of them I'd go with the spruce.
It'll develop into a mellow loud & clear top over time



Mike

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Mike Collins

Thanks for your input Michael.

But I'm not sure I understand what you mean by:



Maybe I should have stated my question differently...

Here is a rephrase:

What do you tell your customers that ask the sound differences between a spruce top and a cedar top?

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

The problem is that all things are NEVER equal.

In general cedar is a bit less dense than most spruces. Since the Young's modulus along the grain pretty well tracks with density, cedar tends to be a little less stiff along the grain at the same thickness. If you leave it a little thicker you can get the long-grain stiffness up, and it will probably end up a bit lighter in weight.

It's hard to talk about cross grain stiffness, since that depends so strongly on grain angle. I've always felt that, all else equal, cedar has a somewhat higher cross grain stiffness than most spruces.

Cedar almost always has much lower damping than most spruce samples. It 'rings' longer when tapped. This certainly effects the tone of the guitar, but you won't find much agreement on how. Tone is so subjective, and different people use the same words to mean different things that this is not surprising.

In general, one would expect low damping to favor high frequency sounds, by not 'eating' as much of the high end. You might think this would come across as 'bright', but it often seems to be heard as a 'rich' tone too.

All types of wood vary in their properties over a wide range. I have a Red Cedar top that has exactly the same stiffness and density properties as a Red Spruce top in the stash. The only difference I can measure is in the damping, where the cedar has a big edge. Normally we think of Red Spruce and Red Cedar as being almost opposites as top woods, but that's not the case here. You really have to go by what the piece does, more than the species.

Finally, as I often say, each piece of wood offers possibilities and sets limits. Very few of us are really capable of realizing all of the possibilities of every piece of wood we get, but a good builder can push the limits pretty far.

O.K.
for a customer.
To really make it easy for them to chose.
Cedar seems to be more warm,open in the bass and loud(depending on the bracing,box size etc--..
spruce can have a very snappy responce(Flamencos)
But can be warm also if worked right !

Then it may come down to looks -many of my buyers have trusted me to pick the right top for the tone(sound) they want to have from their new guitar-NO returns after 30 +years .

It's helpful if you can have one of each in your shop just for new clients to try.
That alone solved alot of their questions-they followed their ears & visual senses.

Mike

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Mike Collins

Yo, Alain

When logging ...no two sticks fall the same way,

No two cabbages role down the hill the same way,

and regarding tops....
well I thinks you get the idea.

Its the luthier, not the wood, ~ well that's what all the old luthiers, be they sayin.


blesssings
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Thanks Michael! Very helpfull as always!

Thanks for your response The Padma. What you say makes a lot of sense and corresponds to what we are used to hear (read) on such forums, but I'm not sure it's the right thing to say to a customer. When a customer inquires about something that may be used on their (possible) custom guitar, they need to be reassured.

Imagine this:

Situation 1
Customer: "So what is the difference between spruce and cedar?"
Luthier: "Cedar is known to deliver a more warm and round sound, while spruce seems to be more snappy."

Situation 2
Customer: "So what is the difference between spruce and cedar?"
Luthier: "Well, you know, it depends on a lot of things, you know. No two pieces of woods are the same. Some people like cedar, some like spruce, you know. There's tradition and aestethics, you know..."

Even though the answer in situation 2 is probably the most honest one, what the luthier is really saying is that he doesn't know the difference between spruce and cedar. And that is not reassuring to a customer.

I guess this all really explains what I had in mind when I created this thread in the first place!

EDIT:
To The Padma: In the family of 'not being very reassuring to customers', I would probably include your avatar!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Just tell them that if they want the heartache of dings and scratches all over their top, that Cedar will be fine, and it will have a warmer, rounder sound!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Threads like this make me feel better about deciding to build with spruce exclusively

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Build log

Gee Alain

Seems my reply may have a ruffled some feathers .

Sorry about that. Was not meant to be personal or anything.
There was no way me gonna "parrot" back what the others have already said regarding the woods. In my opinion the most important thing point was made by Alan Carruth when he said "a good builder can push the limits pretty far." I just reinforced it with a tad of humour.

Regarding customers...

So I go back to you opening post in this thread...and Nope...me see no mention of customers...just a luthier asking other luthiers a question about wood.

So if you wish to start a thread about "how to answer customers questions regarding woods" that would be an interesting topic.

Now since we are on the topic of customers....

Ummm...well ummm...me ain't gotts any of them things ...is true! But then I don't solicited them.

Oh and thank you for your kind comment regarding my avatar, which by the way you will find more information about by going here....http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10112&t=20978

blessings
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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I've had a feeling that those who prefer cedar over spruce may not have seen a really good spruce guitar. Honestly, each can be good or lousy in its own way, depends on the builder.

Alain,

Why don't you let your prospective customer play a cedar topped guitar you have made and a spruce one and get them to describe the difference - then you can tell us

By the way the differences can be subtle as John Hale (apparently) didn't notice the top wood on my cedar/maple guitar that he played recently

If you play a lot in bars then prospective customers of the Padma's instruments could be very reassured. They might think twice about warranty claims though!!

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Warranty.

What warranty?

Common dudes, You know I only build one of a kind / highly experimental stuff. Which is clearly explained if someone has the cash and is truly interested in something I have built. That translates to "Warranty" stops at the door. No promises and no guarantees written or implied.

However I will service anything I have built.

This of course does not apply to custom commissions, which by the way I am not currently taking on.



blessings'
the
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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Cedar Dings

The truth is that an insident that will cause a ding in Cedar will cause a ding in Spruce. Depending on finish it may be deeper in Cedar but accidents that cause dings in guitras are seldom if ever only forcfull enough to affect Cedar but not Spruce.

Now while the guitar is in the white on our bench, Cedar is natorious for dinging when looked at cross-eyed. But the truth is every ding a player puts on Cedar, the odds are he would have put a ding on Spruce as well.

Amen!


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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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The Padma, I'm the one who should be sorry for sounding so harsh! After re-reading my post, it does look like I didn't like your answer. That was not the case and I appologise for it. I truly appreciated your answer which by the way was very full of truth, in my opinion.

Although I did mention a couple of post before yours that I was more thinking about answering customers on the subject. That explains my 'two situations' comparison.

Again, I'm really sorry

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Padma,

That was meant to be a joke based on your wonderful avatar, not a slight on your fabulous and inventive instruments.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

.
ridiculed,

put down,

laughed at,

oh will it never end, ...... oh what insults the ingenuousness are plagued with.

Tell you what dudes...Alain, Dave lets all three lighten up ... no offense taken or offered ...
especially seeing how you both are right about my avatar....keeps people away..lets me get more work done.

as always,
blessings
tP

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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With that avatar, perhaps a name change to "The Padmaniac" is in order.