Official Luthiers Forum!

I found an old thread from 2005 where Robbie Obrien gives some great information on "Satin" finishes. I didin't want to necro-post something that old, so I'll start a new one, but here is the old one for reference. viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=1940

I have a specific question about 'Satin' I'm hoping someone can shed some light on.

I am about to send my first guitar out for a finish. My general idea is for a high gloss on everything except the back of the neck, which I'd like to be 'satin'. I had a discussion with a friend about what exactly "satin" means, and honestly it raised a bunch of questions.

Being a bit of a newb (well, ok, a lot of a newb), all I really know is what I like about the guitars I have and play regularly.

I have a Collings D2H, that has a deep glossy finish on the neck.
I have a newer Martin HD-28 that has a somewhat-less-glossy finish on the neck, but it's glossy none-the-less.
I have a couple of Taylor guitars at my disposal, and have to say that the 'feel' of these necks are by far my preference. I'm not discussing profile (that is another thread), I'm discussing feel/texture.

I have moist/oily hands, and when I play the Collings for more than 10 minutes, I start sticking to it (like vinyl upholstery in the hot sun kind of sticky). It's not that it needs cleaning, etc.. it's just the high gloss and the moisture in my hands not getting along.

The Martin is much more playable, but still has a slight sticky feel once my hands get a little moisture.

The Taylor texture feels much better, even after long play sessions, and I want to try to duplicate that feel on the guitars I build for myself.

The question is, is this finish obtained by using a certain type of finish (something with solids that produces a satin finish directly)? Or is this the result of a de-glossing using steel wool, etc..? Or possibly a combination of the two?

I'm hoping that it's a finish product that will stay satin permanently. My worry with 'deglossing' (and why I haven't deglossed my Collings) is that it will eventually be polished back to a gloss in areas where I play a lot (three cowboy chords ), and I will eventually have to degloss it again... I'm guessing that this will result in eventually wearing through the neck finish altogether, and having to have it re-sprayed... which is something I'd rather not have to plan for.

Thoughts on satin finishes? Specifically in regards to spraying a "satin" product, vs deglossing ?

Thanks in advance!

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Jim Hansen

You've got it right.
High solid finishes are usually satin (not always)
When I started doing finishes I just steel wooled them with 0000 and water or oil .
Under good lighting you can see the difference -the steel wooled finish has all the small scratches visible.
The wooled finish has a nice silky feel.
The made to be satin finish is smooth.

Mike

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Mike Collins

When referring to lacquer, gloss finish is, well, gloss. And satin is gloss finish that has a flattening agent mixed into it to give the satin look and feel.
I buy "bright rubbed effect" lacquer, let it settle for a week or so to let the flattener settle to the bottom. Then I pour off the top 3/4 (of the gallon) into quart cans and label them as "gloss". The remaining quart I stir up into a medium/dull lacquer that I use for necks. I finish before I assemble the neck to the body, so it's easy to get the gloss body/satin neck combination.
Satin has nothing to do with solids content of the finish.
I personally use Sherwin Williams brand finishes, but McFaddens, Behlens (Mohawk), etc all have websites with beacoup info on their products and procedures to use them.
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Chas is correct !
I was thinking of sealers.

sorry
Mike

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Mike Collins

My understanding is that flatting agents come in two kinds, which you could call 'light' and 'heavy'. The heavy flatting agents are, as Robbie said, mineral powders, such as silica. These essentially form a microscopically rough surface layer, and the finish shrinks over that as it dries. Depending on how much of what size powder particlas you have you can end up with a range of gloss levels.

'Light' flatting agents are things like stearates; a soft waxy material that is not soluble in the same things the finish is. Stearates tend to rise to the top, where they leave tiny pits in the surface of the dried film.

You can always tell what kind you've got; silica is heavier than the finish material, and settles to the bottom, while stearates are light and float to the top. Either one has to be stirred in from time to time.

Thanks guys, very helpful...

To ask for a bit more clarification...

In regards to feel vs look. Will using a 'satin' finish product (that isn't deglossed using steel wool, etc..) still result in a slick (or in my case sticky) feel? Or is that purely cosmetic (i.e. not shiny).

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Jim Hansen

Alan was too fast! I think he answered my last question with his previous post. Sorry for the spam, and thanks a bunch for the help.

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Jim Hansen