Official Luthiers Forum!

Opinions with merit are hard to come by....see what you think.

Monday night this week I delivered a guitar to my first customer. We met at a music store here locally because he is close friends with the store owner and friends with the store's employees. He needed a case and the case was to be provided by the store.

Of course - out comes the guitar and everyone wants to see. Accolades fall and everyone has good things to say. As the builder I put a lot of effort into soliciting criticism so I can get better. There was none to be had. Everyone was too busy being impressed by the fact that I had built a guitar. I even went so far as to state plainly and squarely my position, which was that I thought the tone to be thin and too bright. Those that weighed in basically disagreed.

So me being the kind of person I am I sought out and cornered one of the guys that DIDN'T offer an opinion on the sound...and before I tell of this conversation let me say this. As a new builder (only 2 finished guitars) I maintain a very pointed and focused pursuit of the sound I have in my head. With only two builds I am not there. In fact I was closer on my first guitar. My builds need to be more directional but I find it hard to know exactly WHAT to change to find that sound...but I'm okay with that...I'll find it.

This person (cornered) was someone that has over 50 years in the music industry. Working and living in it in almost every respect. He's seen a lot of guitars come and go. I explained that everyone's respect for my accomplishment was appreciated and accepted....but....I am very serious about what I am after. I needed someone to give me some feedback I could use. Not just sunshine and flowing skirts. He relented and asked if he could play the guitar and of course that was welcome by everyone. He played it for quite a few minutes. To paraphrase he said the action was too low for his liking and the neck was too thick on the first 3 frets. Useful information. He loved the responsiveness of the guitar and said the sustain was on par with some of the higher end customs he's played. He said the sound was not as 'robust' as he'd like it but that it still sounded good. THAT'S useful information. So I asked him to simply state what he'd pay for a guitar like that and he replied (after some thought) 1500 bucks.

I was not bothered by his estimate of the value. Although he would be in a position to offer an opinion on that issue. In fact I found it to be useful information. In other words...he didn't say..."Chris you need to be getting paid for this....this should be in the 4 - 5 thousand dollar range...It's fantastic". THAT'S where I want to be.

To the point...I obtained an opinion that helps me from someone who's opinion warranted attention. For me..the rule by which the offered opinion is judged is whether or not it's useful and credibility of the source. Does the opinion confirm a thought or feeling (which in my case it did). Does the opinion create a new light in your head? In essence I believe that if you consider yourself a serious builder then, by some internal force, you seek opinions and information that will help you forward your goal. Heaping praise and shining light on the accomplishment doesn't help the serious builder. Of course the determination of the usefulness of these opinions should be tempered with the knowledge that they are just opinions. So the merit of the opinion or moreover the merit of the person offering it, to me, is paramount. Those of us that are pursuing sound or workmanship need to be aware of the vast field of opinions and their origins.

_________________
There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

I was lucky with number 1 and got very close to the tone I was after, cosmetically there are huge advances to be made and like you I've had trouble getting an honest opinion, even people whom are normally exceptionally picky played it saying it doesn't look like a £2000 guitar but it sounds like on and people who've never played a custom guitar revel in the sustain, the projection etc, so far the I've had 2 comments tonally 1 the trebles were a little thin, this was fixed by different strings the person played it again and marked the improvement, the other was that when playing past the 7th it started to sound thin, so I'm guessing carbon fibre rods in the meck next time too, so for me it's getting down to cosmetics and workmanship, the people who've commented on mine price wise have said £300-£500 which I'd happily make them another for that price!

The honesty of a good opinion is difficult to find and greatly appreciated as I don't want my ego rubbed but ways to further myself, and I sure many would agree

_________________
Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

I know exactly where you are coming from... I am glad that you found someone who will give you an honest critique. My belief is that I won't get something right unless I know it needs to be fixed. I am really not much of a player -- so I have a hard time judging "Quality" besides simple playability and pretty obvious sound.

The "Negative" part of the review can be very hard for "Store folks" to give ..... and unfortunately, the guys at the Local Store have heard a million bad sounding "Home Made Guitar Projects" ... but you are a nice guy and a paying customer that they don't want to run off... and folks get VERY EMOTIONAL about "The New BABY!!!"

It is like telling your wife that the "Special New Recipe" she spent 3-hours cooking is inedible -- and she gets offended and mad and cries and stomps around the house... even though she knows it is inedible because the entire big jar of Cayenne Pepper spilled into it right before the Meat Caught On Fire.....

I found One solution is to play it up against several guitars of various price ranges and known quality -- to hear what it really sounds like. This is honestly my favorite way.... because its "Quality Bracket" is usually pretty obvious after a couple "Head to Heads."

I have a Local Music store that is full of "Semi Pro" players Friday afternoon after work... Musicians who play for money, have CDs and such... but have families and have to live off of "Day Jobs." These guys are not big names, but they sure can play..... These guys are fairly easy to goad into will playing your guitar against a couple other guitars in the shop.... Once these guys know you "Are OK" -- they will tell you how it really stacks up.

One caution I personally ran through... Don't solicit reviews and criticisms about SOUND too early... before the Guitar has played in a little. I was a little Overzealous and carried a project over to get it checked out about 2-days after stringing it up for the 1st time. Playability was great, setup was dead on, but it honestly sounded like a $299.99 Epiphone Acoustic... I was disappointed -- but it was the truth. I carried it home, put Mediums on it, then played it some more.... and it opened up BIG TIME and sounded like a totally different guitar. A month later, I carried it back and it played along side "Good" guitars. They said "Wow, that thing sure sounds a million times better than last time, What did you do to it??"...... My Response... "Put Medium strings on it and played it for a month."

Have a good one

John

I think your always going to find it very difficult to get a truly 'honest' opinion, especially if you corner someone, I've tried and suspect the outcome always to be somewhat sugar coated. In fact, I suspect if your in the same room during the assessment and delivery it is going to leave you wondering as you walk away.

Let's face it, people don't like to be too critical in such a circumstance, even if you 'have' taken the time to express the importance of a no B/S appraisal in order to advance your skills. The fact you have even bothered to ask them for an opinion is flattering to them and it's only human nature they should feel a need to reciprocate or at the very least make an attempt to see things in a positive light.

As builders we assess the potential in the wood before we start. We assess when the components fit right as we work and assess when we have removed enough wood to make it sound right before we glue it all together. In the end, being brutally honest with ourselves when assessing the 'sound' of our finished product is just as important as any of those assessments made above because while others may offer their opinions which can be 'helpful', the truth is, it will most likely be your own assessment that will guide you most through the next.

Cheers

Kim

Players must just be all nice... and the problem is made worse by qualifying comments such as '' really is that your first, or 'excellent ...for a first' - it does not give you the required feedback on how what to improve, as folk are generally stunned that you have made something that looks to them (admitedly in many cases family and friends with an untrained eye) like a pro job - especially as generally because even on the first most have taken more care and attentiona to detail on bracing and wood selection than many factory jobs, the tone is surprizingly good after they open up a little.... Thankfully we tend to be our own harshest critics - the initial euphoria that accompanies the completion of number 1, the surprize (hopefully) that its turned out quite positive, and the pride which is fair enough given that in most part its taken alot of time and effort, patience and dedication, soon subsides, as you begin to pick holes - we see past the 'good' and start to see the mistakes, the cosmetic errors where only experience and advnacement of technical skill will help us improve...

The other problem we have is that from a purely playing perspective, the tone and playability come first - the cosmetics a distant second - so if you close your eyes and play and it sounds great/good/close to what you had in mind then its easy to get carried away - I remember finding a (Rare for the UK) Foley... (please forgive this - if you read here) I think that was the name - adi top/brazilian 000 with loads of cowboy bling, looking inside, the bracing was a little rough (although probably just naturally split) and the linings perhaps could have been cleaner, even some of the purfling/binding was not up to some I have seen, even on here, yet when picked and played - this guitar was perfection in tone playabilty it sparkled and came alive as only an instrument made by a master can. truely awesome and as a player thats all that mattered.... now as someone on teh early part of this journey, I decided to be pragmatic about it - focus on the sound first and as the woodworking skills improve so will the cosmetic detail.

But as you say getting an honest opinion on tone is so tricky, everyone wants to be kind, everyone puts it in context, and most players have different opinions anyway as some aspects are subjective. And I would guess for most builders it's tone they want to get right first and need the most honest feedback on...as we can all SEE the cosmetic problems!

I understand your wanting good constructive criticism, but it is going to be very hard to find. In some respects the only one you need to satisfy is your customer, and yourself.

Worth much more is your own self-confidence. I know that is hard after only 2 guitars, but you cannot expect to gain it by any other means but time and number of guitars built. At some point you will have a self-confidence that you can control your craft, and your tone, to some extent, and you will have found the sound you are happy with.

Be looking forward to the day one of your guitars gets sold on the secondary market, like on a "buy and sell" section on a guitar forum, or ebay. That is truly an "unbiased third party opinion". I love it when my "satisfied customer" put my guitar up for resale, and I get to see how it is valued by the bigger world.

_________________
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Chris, I think another really tough part of the equation is personal preference. For example, if you got an honest critique from two accomplished players, and one said "the neck is a little bit fatter than I like" and the other said "the neck is a little bit thinner than I like" - which one is correct?

Well, of course they both are.

Now I know that sounds like an extreme example, but one woman's "shimmering highs" might be another man's "a little bit weak on bass" - a totally subjective response to the same aural sensation. Or is it? Do we all hear the same thing? Honestly? We have learned to accept that we each have developed taste buds and taste/texture sensations that make us all reach for different foods at the smorgasbord - isn't it probable that each one of us not only hears differently (the physics and physiology) but have developed a sense of what we each like?

I was talking to a friend and lutherie mentor about this subject this morning, and we both feel that a luthier should build the best instruments they can, get the playability "right" (knowing action can be adjusted for each player), and allow that instrument to deliver what it has - whatever that is. Someone is likely to love it, maybe even think it is the finest and most inspiring instrument they have ever played. Other players may see that instrument as simply "different" from other guitars they may have played or own, and may recognize it as a tool for composition for specific songs or certain style(s) of music - a different weapon for the arsenal. Still others may not like the instrument at all, but that does not mean the instrument is not good or even great, it may simply be player preference.

If you are building for the joy of building and to add music to the world, I guess the final critique is whether the instruments do inspire players to play.

If you are building to sell, the cha-ching of the cash register will indicate that you have "passed the audition."

Dennis

_________________
Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

So why do I build? (secret voice in my head)

I"ll tell all of you...it's because it's the only form of woodworking I know where the end product has 'life'...and I have this 'thing' about guitars. I know no other way to put it. I heard Simon Fay say something one time that caught my ear. He said, "...there's something spiritual about building a guitar". He may not remember saying it but he did. I latched onto that because it articulated a feeling I had about my first build. Something I couldn't put a finger on. And one guitar was certainly not enough.

There's probably something wrong with this statement but I am supremely confident that I will get my guitars to be where I want them to be. Just not as quickly as I want that's for sure. Mars...Venice...and the post man type stuff. They all conspire against me I know it!

I've been asked several times by family members if I wanted to build full time and offer them up for sale. My answer has always been, "if it turns into something I'm okay with it....if it doesn't I'm okay with that too". I mean that. I already have a very successful business.

The pieces part that I drive to satisfy is my own internal view of what the end result should be. I'm not there yet...and I suppose, in some weird way, that all these people that will not offer truth are...somehow...getting in the way.

_________________
There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

On the one hand, people may be too nice to say what they think.

On the other hand, I think most people (guitar players included) aren't able to articulate what they're hearing. I'm still learning myself. Really, there are very few people in this world who can give builders useful feedback. Most seem to be master builders.

$1500.00 for a 2nd guitar is pretty good, I would think. If I can get cost+ $200 I would be happy on the first few.

_________________
Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

So the controversial question would then, be who's opinion should have most merit? the players (customers?) or master builders? And I say this as devils advocate, If the customer is happy and the instruiment meets their requirements, does the opinion on the guitar from other builders really matter? - I appreciate that it's also about the personal desire of the builder to constantly improve their standards and learn more from the more experienced, but ultimately is not the critic from musicians more important?

Or more specifically, for me anyway, of those opinions that SHOULD have merit (such as the satisfied customer), does that opinion help forward my personal craft?

It is reasonable and commonly accepted that if the customer is happy with your product there is nothing else. I have discovered however that not all customer's are overly concerned with your status as a builder. They just know you build and that's that.

_________________
There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Grumble...

I'm not saying players' opinions don't matter; they do. But feedback from a master builder is more likely to help someone make better sounding/looking/feeling guitars. And in theory, if one makes better sounding/looking/feeling guitars, most players will like them more, which is the point, right? That's all I'm saying.

Fair point and I was playing devils advocate on that question so no ned to grumble

But it is an interesting question; There is something intrinsically important to builders - to constantly strive for improvement an thus feedback from more experienced builders and the elite craftsmen is invaluable (when they give you the same advice that is ) - and that can be part of the problem as opinion is so varied on many things that do influence tone - and also why this thing is so darn addictive.

In the end, it is the customer's opinion that matters. One is unlikely to become a master builder if customers don't want the product being built.

I have taken my classical guitars to the local university guitar performance class for feedback by the students and faculty. I have taken them to weekend musician retreats for feedback from semi-pros to very well known performers. I have had a nylon string cross-over guitar model played and received very useful feedback from more than 100 players. The most telling feedback was from the owner of a classical guitar store in a nearby big city. His store has classicals from $600 up to $10,000. He has played them all. Several things from this visit stand out. I took two classical guitars and he played them very hard - really pushed them before commenting on them. He liked features of each but most telling was that he was not ready to buy either. He said come back when I get the G string tone the way he likes ( I am working on that) and get the cost lower by using commercial rosettes and very cheap tuners and case. And dark colored sides and back ( BRW, EIR, Cocobolo, Ebony, nothing else).

To me the most significant insight was that he tested guitars in a way that I do not. He was looking for a very robust sound while for my playing I like warm and sweet. So if I want to sell at wholesale (50% of sale price) to him I need to change the way I thickness the tops and brace them and compromise on rosettes and tuners.

The big question is whether I want my label on this kind of guitar.

_________________
GEO
perpetual beginner

Yes, yes and yes again! (Did I say 'Yes'?)

Chances many here will disagree with what I'm about to say, but I sincerely think luthier's opinion on other's work is far from the best opinion there is. Players opinions are and will always be the best opinions about instruments. We have to see ourselves (builders) as servants to players. We should do the best we can to please them, and only them.

A builder will look for things that are important to him ("Did he use hide glue?", "Is the top domed?", "What kind of neck joint did he use?", etc. etc. All things most players couldn't care less about. A builder WILL be able to help you by sharing with you the ways he used to achieve things (methods, tools, etc.). And that is very valuable. But players are the one to look for when seeking opinions on the quality and value of your instruments. They will grab your guitar, play it, tell you about the sound and the feel. That is what's most important.

_________________
Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I had a similar experience to George's. I took some of my stuff to what I felt to be the best boutique acoustic store in the area and got valid criticism as to what it would take to have a product that would be viable in the real world of retailing guitars. A relationship developed that has proved very beneficial in my progress. From my experience I'd say take your instrument to the best acoustic store in your area. (Along with a sixer of their favorite microbrew or a gift certificate for lunch at a nearby restaurant) Leave it there and have the owner, sales and teaching staff, and maybe some regular customers play it. Come back in a couple of weeks and get the verdict. Listen to what they say!! If there are any builders/repair types that have been at it for 25- 30 years around they are usually pretty blunt as well and can be helpful, especially as to fit and finish and weaknesses that may turn into warranty issues down the line .
TJK

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I guess I should add that I have had several long time builders test my classical guitars as I finish them. Comments on craftsmanship and aesthetic issues have been very useful and help me develop in those areas but the candid comments from players and teachers result in more changes to the subsequent instruments. From these I also know that what pleases one may not be what another player prefers in the areas of tone, volume, and playability.

_________________
GEO
perpetual beginner

A few years ago I ask Jim Olson what he thought of the sound of my stuff. He said "They all sound good--to someone"
TJK

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

chris,

the sense i get from reading your posts is that you're well on your way to being your own toughest critic - which is exactly what i think each builder needs to be. that great player that gave you the constructive comments probably told you what you already suspected. i've only finished 9, so take that in to account. but on my latest guitar, i thought the bass e was not as responsive and strong as the rest of the strings. i brought the guitar to my mentor, and guess what he told me? same thing.

about the issue of trying to get great players to volunteer their criticism, try putting the shoe on the other foot and you'll know why no one wants to offer a harsh word. i can not imagine listening to monty montgomery and suggesting that i heard a string squeek or thought that one of his harmonics in a lightning fast passage didn't really ring out like the others. to his playing, my comments come across as pathetic - like i'm missing the forest for the trees. so now, if a great player has never held a big chunk of wood in one hand and a chisel in the other and decided to make a guitar neck, never mind the whole instrument, i can see where they're going to be reluctant to hold your guitar in their hands and critique your craft.

doesn't mean we shouldn't ask. but i might help to explain why it's hard to get the feedback we're after.

also remember that on the other end, you will get comments from some who have labelled themselves experts because they read reviews in 'acoustic guitar' and that kind of thing. they will think that spotting a glob of glue or recognizing a species of wood makes them experts - the kind of 'expert advice' you need to take with a grain of salt. so be wary of that too.

phil

I find these types of comments particularly annoying, though I shouldn't be surprised. I guess the thing I find particularly annoying is that I make banduras and there's basically no published information or anything on what makes a good bandura so these folks are relying on voodoo or something.

_________________
http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Well here's the short of it. We have to go after these opinions. Chase them down. Partly due to the fact that there is a shortage of valuable opinions and partly due to the fact that when you find someone capable of lending one....you have to squeeze it out of them.



That's it.

_________________
There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

Chris, I can think of a lot of old sayings that would be appropriate for this topic. But, someone in
this thread has already touched on a good one. “To thine own self be true”

Here’s my opinion, take it for what its worth. Guitars are a lot like a bottle of wine.
If the wine tastes great to you, than it’s a great bottle of wine. If someone feels your guitar
sounds great, than it does! And, don’t take to lightly the praise you receive. I’ve found that
most people who get really excited about something, are really excited about something.
And, when you achieve that sound you’re looking for, (and, I’m sure you will) don’t be surprised
if another does not hear what you hear. The truth is, the sound and tone of a guitar is very
subjective to one who’s playing it.

Something else I’m trying to say is, you will always know how well you’ve built a guitar. You’ll
know whether it sounds good or not. And, sometimes that’s all you’re going to have. The
knowledge that you have built a great guitar. In my mind, that’s quite an accomplishment in its self!
Listen, you are obviously an intelligent person, who strives for excellence. If this were not so,
you wouldn’t already have a successful business. Just stay true to what you love to do, and you
will always be successful. Of course, I get the feeling, I didn’t need to tell you that.

Anyway, my opinion is, don’t put to much stock in opinions.

Robert

_________________
Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!