***** Guitar Project Jigs, Tools & Techniques Online Resources Archives OLF Video Page Library of plans MP3 Library Inlay Class
Offical Luthiers Forum





And our community proudly sponsored by:

RC Tonewoods | Stewart MacDonald | LuthiersForum
TasmanianTonewoods | OLF | OLF MERCH
Luthier Suppliers | Pacific Coast Woods | ELEVATE
OLF X | Tasmanian Acoustic Tonewood | Luthiers Forum Store!
Luthiers Forum | OLF Facebook | AVAIL SPACE
OLF | Alaska Specialty Woods | A.Hix Tonewood
Duke of Pearl | Birkonium CNC | Space




Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sun Jul 27, 2025 12:16 pm


Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
  Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
Todd Rose
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:26 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am
Posts: 2687
Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
BTW, Danny, thanks for your input about the 6" ports.

In situations where the opening is necessarily going to be constricted to 4" or less at the machine itself, does it still make sense to run 6" duct all the way to the machine, and then adapt it as necessary at the machine? I just skimmed Bill Pentz's web site and didn't find the answer to that question, at least not explicitly stated, though he seems to imply that the answer would be "Yes, use all 6" duct in all cases".

BTW, Bill Pentz also gives some good general guidelines about the HP/size of cyclone collector he'd recommend for variously sized shops (presumably to save dummies like me from having to do a lot of calculations), and it sounds like I should go for the 3 HP V-System:
"For those with medium roughly two-car garage sized shops who have a cyclone, they need at least a 2 hp motor turning at least a 13" impeller or 12" airfoil impeller. There are a lot of concerns with the airfoils that need considered before going that direction. Most with this sized shop find themselves far happier with 3hp motors turning 14" impellers."

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/
Top
 Profile  
 
8string
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:11 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:32 pm
Posts: 25
First name: Victor
Last Name: Seal
City: Trenton
State: Michigan
Zip/Postal Code: 48183
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I also have the JDS Dust Force. 1350 CFM, I think. It came with a mobile base and I roll it around to where it is needed. It is in my garage also and space is at a premium. It is a little bothersome, but sure works better than a shop-vac. 8string
Top
 Profile  
 
Dave Fifield
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:04 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:05 pm
Posts: 1567
Location: San Jose, CA
First name: Dave
Last Name: Fifield
City: San Jose
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 95124
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I spent a lot of time researching cyclone dust collectors in the past few days - actually, since the news about John Mayes being laid up in hospital with pneumonia!! My dust control was woefully lacking - I only had a small Jet dust collector that I've had since I moved to my current house in 2000 - it was all I could afford back then, and now is just too small and inadequate for the woodwork I'm doing.

I nearly went with the Clearvu, but in the end, I went with the Grizzly G0440. It has the best combination of robustness, power, and value for money for me. Coincidently, I just ordered it today. I liked the Oneida offerings, but just couldn't justify spending the extra $$ on their stuff. I also ordered the RF remote control parts from ClearVu and will be taking off the Griz infrared remote system and substituting this instead - reason is that I'm going to install the new cyclone outside the workshop, so there's no line-of-sight.

Cheers,
Dave F.

_________________
Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"
Top
 Profile  
 
Chris Paulick
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:38 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
I have the harbor freight 2hp collector that's on sale now for $179 and i got the filter for it. You might be able to get a 15% off coupon for it too.
http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm
That's also the HF in the links picture.
Top
 Profile  
 
Chris Paulick
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:11 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
Mine's on a 20 amp. circuit.
Top
 Profile  
 
Chris Paulick
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:01 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
Mine reads 20 amp. peak on the side but I've had it running along with a 3hp router. I think the 20 amp. might be more like a locked rotor current rating and not the running current. I planned a dedicated circuit for it but it isn't placed where I planned for it. One day I'll move it when I get around to installing pipe ductwork. :?: My recepticals are GFI protected in my shop too as they should also be in a garage in a home built since about 80 or so.
Top
 Profile  
 
Todd Rose
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:09 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am
Posts: 2687
Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
Todd Stock wrote:
I usually try to install the cyclone in unfinished space adjacent to the shop, which lets me park the motor between floor joists to pick up a few additional inches and reduce the sound level in the shop. Provided there is 4" of clearance from the subfloor above, that's enough to avoid reducing the cooling air flow.

In terms of what you get with the V-3000 vs. 3 hp Super :

- 1285 vs 1575 CFM (@ 3" SP Cyclone Inlet)
- 95 ft^2 vs 110 ft^2 filter area; both filter 99.9% of .2-2 micron test material
- Standard tripod stand for V-3000 versus wall bracket for Gorilla (floor stands limit access and may not fit in a closet or other space used for soundproofing)
- 75 dB versus 80-82 dB (@ 10')
- 85" x 48" x 48" (with tripod; optional wall bracket brings that down to 85" x 45" x 24") versus 95" x 52" x 27"
- 6" vs. 8" intake/vane

One way to look at this is that the V-3000 is purpose designed for a small shop with relatively short 6" runs, while the Gorilla is really a general purpose cyclone which will work in a broader range of shops, and handle longer runs from an 8" main. The extra 290 CFM translates to the ability to run two stationary machines at one time, which I often end up doing with students in the shop or when milling wood (band saw & sander; table saw and jointer). The extra filter area means better fines handling and longer periods between cleaning the cake. The longer body on the Gorilla means that you'll need at least 8' of space (7-1/2' plus space between joists will work) versus a 7' 6" ceiling (7' plus joist space) for the V-3000.

Suggestions? Unless height is critical, the Gorilla will provide better performance, and will allow use in a larger shop should you upgrade space or build a dedicated space.


Thanks for your detailed comparison, Todd. In my case, my shop ceiling is finished at 7' 7", and there is no adjacent space to put the collector in. So, the height is a limiting factor, but the good news is that the V-3000 will fit. I will probably build a closet for it in the corner to help keep the noise down.

I already have a 220v receptacle on a 30 amp circuit in that corner.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/
Top
 Profile  
 
SteveSmith
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:37 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7473
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
I also have no exterior space and had to install my Gorilla unit in a corner of the shop. I think that I will be more comfortable using the unit if it is quite enough so I don't have to wear ear protection every time I turn it on. We had a long thread about noise reduction over at the MIMF some time ago and the recommendation was to use 2 or 3 sheets of 1/2" drywall as an enclosure for a low cost sound block. I have cut some materials for part of the enclosure but have not installed anything yet.

I had an email discussion with one of the engineers at Oneida and learned that most of the noise comes from the exhaust. He also said I would need about 10 sq ft (IIRC) of exhaust area for my unit and recommended using a baffle or duct with corners to minimize exhaust noise escaping the enclosure.

I did do an experiment where I turned on the dust collector and measured the dB levels with a sound pressure level (SPL) meter at several locations around the shop then propped some plywood in front of the exhaust filter and threw an old rug over part of it and did the measurements again. There was an obvious difference that encouraged me to proceed.

My current plan is to enclose the exhaust filter and the cyclone while leaving the collection drum and the motor exposed. The walls will be 1/2" plywood, 2 layers of 1/2" sheetrock and, possibly, a layer of ceiling tile (the type used in drop ceilings that have a sound reduction rating). The plywood is just there for structure.

In the meantime I just wear ear protection, and even with the mods it still may not be quite enough to run without ear protection but, we'll see.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"
Top
 Profile  
 
Chris Paulick
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:55 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
I don't see where drywall is good for sound proofing??? I'd say you would be better off using regular fiberglass insulation in the wall studs. And line the return duct with the fiber board or make the duct from the fiber board. You might also want to cover the inside walls of the collector enclosure with the fiberglass fiber board. That's my thoughts.
Top
 Profile  
 
Chris Paulick
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:46 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
I too agree. :D You can actually have a breaker up to 8 times the running load of a motor but you better have over loads and wire sized at 125% of the FLA and on it's own circuit. But that's more out of our league motors and the breaker is a quick fix. Best fix is to have it on a dedicated circuit. Plenty of laid off electricians looking for little side jobs now. :)
Top
 Profile  
 
SteveSmith
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 9:53 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7473
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Chris, that's what I initially thought too. The sound guys got involved and made those recommendations. They said it's all about mass which is what you get with the drywall. After I get it built, or partially built, I'll run some more tests with the SPL meter and let everyone know how it works out. But shop improvements are on hold until I get #1 done.

From http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/myths.htm, a link with some info on sound proofing:
common fiberglass insulation: makes a great thermal insulator, but not a very good acoustical insulator. (Really!) Read how this is hyped, but don't believe all of it!

Of course there are some very effective sound proofing products out there but the things that seem suitable for this kind of application are expensive. Drywall is cheap and, if nothing else, the plywood exterior of the enclosure will give me somewhere to hang clamps, jigs, and maybe some shelves idunno

I just had the fiberglass duct board removed from my home because it was breaking down and I don't want to breathe fiberglass particles so I don't think I'd use it for this application unless it was covered with something.

Here's some more info from the site mentioned above, I'm trying to approximate the Double drywall one side with sound control insulation:
Attachment:
SoundproofingChart.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"
Top
 Profile  
 
Chris Paulick
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:32 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
All I know for sure is when I was young a band practiced in a room with insulation over it and it really kept it quiet. I once just laid insulation on top of my loud shop vac in a corner of the basement 15' away that I ran when doing inlay and it helped a lot. They also sale a fiberglass batting sound insulation that is used a lot in office walls that is more dense. I can see the mass point as from keeping the wall from vibrating like a guitar top. If you are going to use 3 layers of drywall you might be better off just running up some block. And I'd say you should have a filter also on the duct return into the room. How loud are those big boys?
Top
 Profile  
 
Todd Rose
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:48 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am
Posts: 2687
Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
It hadn't dawned on me duh that if I built a more-or-less airtight closet around the dust collector, that there'd be nowhere for the exhaust air to go. One of the things I know about sound proofing is that a lot of sound travels through small air spaces. In other words, you could have a room with thick concrete walls and a big, thick, heavy door, but if you have a 1/4" air space under the door, your noise is going to escape big time. So, yeah, it seems like the challenge here is to design a muffler - something that allows the exhaust air out but muffles the sound.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/
Top
 Profile  
 
SteveSmith
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:10 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7473
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Chris, I've used regular insulation before as well so it has some soundproofing qualities but I guess there are just better ways to go. So far I have not tried any of these other ways myself.

The noise spec for the 2HP Super Gorilla (what I've got) says 78-79dB at 10 feet. IIRC its more like 90dB up close, I do remember that the SPL readings that I measured were safely below the damage threshold for hearing but still louder than one should listen to for an extended time without protection. 10 feet away is half way across my shop.

Todd, the engineer at Oneida said to make the exhaust outlet so that there was not a clear path for the sound from the inside to the outside, i.e. make it turn corners, the more the better.

The folks at the soundproofing site I linked to in my earlier post seemed to be willing to discuss designs so I think I'll call them and see what they say.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"
Top
 Profile  
 
Todd Rose
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:23 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am
Posts: 2687
Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
Cool, Steve. Keep us posted!

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/
Top
 Profile  
 
Chris Paulick
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:19 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
I might think that something along the idea of a P trap or U would work if you know what I mean. That's why I suggest the fiber board duct. In side of commercial size air handlers(the ones you can walk into the duct ) and smaller ones there is a insulation that is black in color that is for sound absorption as well as temp insulation to prevent the outer metal duct from sweating plus the outside is also wrapped with foil backed insulation. Your filter into the room will also help dampen some of the sound. Heck you might want to hook up a another duct from the center of your shop and connect a blower from an air handler mounted in the Dust collector room for a shop air cleaner. I put two filters on the air intake of my wall AC unit in the shop to filter the dust and to keep the ac coils from getting clogged up.
Top
 Profile  
 
SteveSmith
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:59 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7473
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
A U trap is kind of what I was thinking. The ductboard I was thinking of is different. Maybe this stuff would do better than the ceiling tiles for the layer on the drywall.

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"
Top
 Profile  
 
B Potter
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:00 pm 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut

Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 28
Location: Port Saint Lucie,Florida
First name: Robert
Last Name: Potter
City: Port St. Lucie
State: Florida
Zip/Postal Code: 34983
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Guys FWI when I first got my penn state collector i put it in a sound proof closet and had problems with it over heating and popping the thermal overload on the motor.BobP
Top
 Profile  
 
SteveSmith
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:28 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:36 am
Posts: 7473
Location: Southeast US
City: Lenoir City
State: TN
Zip/Postal Code: 37772
Country: US
Focus: Repair
Bob, Good point, that was why I was going to leave the motor exposed.

More importantly, Blain, have we answered your questions?

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"
Top
 Profile  
 
Blain
PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:29 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:14 pm
Posts: 761
First name: Blain
City: Leander
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Yes, I've gotten loads of information from this post and appreciate everyone's input and ideas.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 2 of 2
  [ 45 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Board index » Luthiers Forum Rooms » Guitar Building Forum

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ken Lewis, meddlingfool, Michaeldc and 24 guests

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com