Official Luthiers Forum!

What is the minimum diameter sycamore tree that would yield useful wood to use for back and sides on OM or dreadnaught sized guitars? Is tone wood usually quarter sawn or rift sawn (see pic)?

http://www.wisegeek.com/images/quartersawn.jpg

If you cut quartersawn, is the wider wood in the middle of the quarter section typically used for backs and the narrower pieces near the edges used for sides? The answer to this question will help determine how long to leave each log section when cutting with the chainsaw.

Finally, how far down the trunk yields useful wood? Is the wood still useful down low where the tree is no longer round?

Thanks! It would be neat to build a guitar out of a tree grown on the banks of O'Kalip creek which runs alongside the Scott woods where I hunted while growing up.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Oops, here is the pic I tried to show above:

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

And let the debate begin again, on what exactly is the definition of rift vs quartered.

What size logs do you have? I don't know what the sapwood/heartwood thicknesses are for sycamore so I don't know what size logs you should start with. I would think at least 20" diameter before I would bother putting it to the saw (though I have no resawing experience to back that up).

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Smiling here......I didn't realize there was a big debate about this, Ha! I'm more interested in how to determine if it's worth my time to work on this tree and how long I should cut each section of the log if I do. The tree still has a big root ball at the bottom so I'm also curious how low on the trunk yields useful wood.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

To my understanding quartersawn would be the center picture depicted.

The one on the right would be riftsawn. How'd they get this wrong?

Quartersawing is an attempt to get the grainlines of the wood to be perpendicular to the face of the wood.

The larger the log, the more practical it is to quartersaw. However, it is least efficient at using all the log. In many rare woods like rosewoods and ebonies, you will see flatsawn wood very frequently.

Fingerboards and sides of guitars work best quartersawn. Backs can use up flatsawn woods, but they are not as stable as typical quartersawn woods.

A lot of guitar wood these days utilizes flatsawing techniques to maximize yield. Many old fine guitars were built with less than perfectly quartersawn woods, so we have to walk circumspectly in declaring wood unusable for guitars or we step on our own history.

Worth your time Daryl? What's your time worth? You will end up with a lot of wood processing any log. Acquiring, Cutting, Storing, and ultimately Owning this wood is a cost in itself. The age old question arises, do you want to process wood or build guitars?

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Wow - this might be the first opportunity to share some firsthand experience. (I've been a Luthierforum voyeur for a while now). Recently I had a tree milled (Silver Maple - probably less suitable than Sycamore you're cutting). Although frankly, the guitar sounds pretty good - and silver maples a good deal less hard than any other maple that's traditionally used for building guitars.

I think what I learned from my experience was that a tree yields one heck of a lot of wood - and so you'll want to use only a bit of it for the guitar, so find the right stuff (re: avoiding knots, etc.)

How will you mill it - with one of those portable sawmills? That's what we did - (a local guy brought it to our back yard and cut the wood any way we asked) - if I'd known to give him the right direction, I'd have gotten a lot better yield).

I think you can tell I'm thinking through this as I write it - the real issue is to cut the wood in the appropriate way so that you can treat it properly so that you can store it and dry it properly. I'd appreciate it if others would comment on the appropriate way to cut (how thick, assuming quartersawn) how to treat (waxing the ends?) and how to dry (in a noncommercial setting) so that it doesn't split. My hunch is that you want to cut planks that are quartersawn, treat them on the ends so that they don't split, and sticker them to dry. As someone else said, quartersawn is always more stable, although it might not be the prettiest. Quartersaw the sides, and use the pretty stuff for backs? Corrections appreciated.

Last thought - those portable sawmills probably have a bit of waste between cuts, so don't try to get close bookmatching for the same back for two sides of a back from the portable sawmill. Better to use a bandsaw with a finer blade for that.

Open to more experienced viewpoints - thanks.

Not knowing what I'm doing, I would leave all the boards around 3/4" thick so they could be resawn for book matching after drying. Not sure if that's the right way or not but is what I was thinking.

Also, I had thought of cutting the log in whatever length sections with a chainsaw then hauling these to someone to cut up with a bandsaw mill then haul the boards home and stack/sticker after sealing the ends of the boards.

The only reason I would considr doing this is for cheaper building material and it would also be neat to build a guitar from a tree where I grew up. Ironically, I've never heard a guitar built using sycamore <smile>.

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I agree with Bruce and David's assessments. I would also cut it @ about 1 1/4" thick. You need to figure shrinkage and warpage. So if you want to end up with 3/16" final thickness for back and side ( you could go thinner but lets be safe). So 3/16" + about a 1/16" kerf. So @ 1/4" per piece a 2 bookmatched back set would take 1" which is about what you would end up with if you cut at 1 1/4". I would cross cut at 24" and 36". This will allow for end checking to be cut off later. If you have 9" of usable width a 7' section of log will yield a equal number of back and side sets. Out of the 7' you get two billets 24" and one 36". This would give you 4 complete sets. All of the usual stickering/ painting end grain etc. applies. Sycamore can be tricky to dry. As with all home wood drying you will end up with a certain percentage of firewood. In other words expect some loss. Your chances are greatly improved with the quarter sawn stuff. One more thing. Always cut the heart out. In other words if you have a plank that contains the center of the tree you might as well cut through it now. If you leave it, it will crack, check, warp and pull the rest of the wood with it.
Link

_________________
Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Size wise -- 22 - 24" should be sufficient for getting wood big enough for Guitar Back.

2 points -- 1 has to do with the pics/definitions..
The other has to specifically do with Sycamore (American Plane, not European sycamore ... which is Maple)

I don't think those pics are totally accurate.

Typically -- "Quatrtersawn" is normally milled the way Pic 3 shows. This yields wood that is cut between 0 and 45* perpendicular to the growth rings. I would prefer to get it cut like #2, but that is probably a pain in the rear for the mill guy.... but it would increase the amount of wood *We* can use for Guitars... without resorting to getting rid of the other 50% of the tree.

Typically, Rift sawn is an attempt to get the grain *Not* flat sawn and *Not* quartersawn -- so usually between like 20* - 65* or so perpendicular to the growth rings.... so it doesn't actually correspond to Pic 2. Now, if Pic 2 showed the saw going in at an angle for all cuts -- so the grain was off-quarter but not flat... it would be closer to Rift. This can help with splitty wood.

Now... back to the other question....

Sycamore has absolutely spectacular cross grain rays that shine when cut *Perfectly* parallel to the grain. When cut about any other way... it just looks like Wood. Nothing special in particular about it.

Many Maples are cut flat sawn to show off their awesome grain patterns, as some patterns don't quite show right when cut on quarter.

Good luck.

John

A friend has been given a log of Laburnum anagyroides, yes I've just been on wikipedia, and sorry to hijack this a bit so get any useful wood it'd have to be a 3 piece slab sawn back sawn across the whole width of the log, I know it'd likely warp but would it be any good once braced etc my first was a slab saw back and sides, and that rippled, but I now know I think how to minimise this, the log has been sawn up the middle and left for 2 years now would that be dry enough to resaw?

Thanks and sorry rude I know

John

_________________
Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Darryl,

I would cut my blocks about 45" long. That will yield two backs along the length and once too small for backs, it will be long enough for sides. If you just cut to back length you will have a lot more waste.

Cut or split into planks about 2" thick and sticker to dry.

This has worked for me but some would have you cut it into sets green and sticker to dry.

Cecil

When milling wood not all of the wood will be of luthier grade. You want to have clear grain. You will also want to cut the wood full thickness. I like to mill off from 5/4 to 8/4. Once it is machined you have to cure the wood. Sides should be 5 inches wide and 36 long , and the backs 24 long and 8 wide. Keep in mind kerf of the blade and surfacing.
Sides can be roughed out with the thought of ratio of back and sides. You need more back material than sides. Sycamore usually cures off without much checking. If you can find a mill in your area with a kiln , that will help. How you stack the wood after milling is most likely more important that how you cut it. Storing the wood is very important.
I keep the wood pressed and stickered. I flip the wood every month. You want to have good air flow over the wood. You can air dry ( 1 year per inch ) but kiln dried wood is more stable. There are a number of types of kilns. You have Solar - Heat _ RF . Solar and heat kilns often use a dehumidifier in conjunction with the fans and heat. This process can take a few weeks to a month. RF uses Radio waves much like a microwave. This unit can dry wood faster than the heat kilns.
john hall

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. I may take Cecil's advise and cut the log in 45" lengths. If I get 2 or 3 sections that length it would make quite a few backs and sides.

Looks like I should go with 5/4" boards. I don't know anyone with a kiln so I will probably need to air dry. How far should the boards be off the ground?

Thanks again for the suggestions!

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I would keep the boards at least 18" off the ground.And stickered with 1" square stickers for good cirulation.Try to keep out of the sun if possible.

If you have open trusses in your garage they will work well.. The important thing is air flow. If you can't store in under roof be careful of mold growth. You don't want the wood getting wet if possible. Use 3/4 inch minimum stickers .
john

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

A recent issue of Fine Woodworking has an article with instructions for stickering outdoors by building a roof over the stack of wood and covering the sides with some kind of netting.
Walter

_________________
Walter Lay
"It's taken me so long, but now that I know
I can see. All that I do or say, is all I ever will be"
- Billy Joe Shaver

From a sawmill point of view, the diagrams at the beginning of this post are correct. Quartersawing is to first cut the log into quarters lengthwise. Then lay the log quarter on the saw bed and saw it into boards without flipping the log quarter. Rift sawn boards are more time consuming and difficult to produce. And there is a lot of waste. I have processed logs into tonewood a couple of times. I hand split the log lengthwise with wedges. Then I split off wedge shaped (pie shaped) billets. After they dry for a couple years, you can cut them into "perfectly quartersawn" sets. In luthiery, quartersawn is usually understood to have the grain running perpendicular to the sawn surface when viewed from the end grain. If you order quartersawn lumber from a sawmill, it is possible that your board could be a long way off from what you expect. Refer back to the quartersaw diagram. I hopes this helps. Go ahead and cut it up.

Whoops! I looked at the diagram again and the quartersawn diagram is not correct. I correct myself!