Official Luthiers Forum!

Is it possible to build with a very small budget? I have been getting started on my first build with what I once considered a fairly well equipped shop, but have NO $$$$$ anymore. I got some free wood and such. Resawing partially by hand due to bandsaw size. Thicknessing with crappy planes, and belt sander. It is getting discouraging because I haven't seen any real results. I will not give up, just curious if there are some good money saving tips anyone can offer.

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

I think the answer is probably yes. After all, you're mostly building precision wood parts then gluing them together. Without certain capabilities some of those parts may be quite time consuming to build. My great-grandfather built a violin for my dad in the 1930's and I don't think he had any power tools in his shop.

I built my first electric from scratch, except for using a pre-slotted fretboard, in my shop that was decently equipped for building furniture. I had a table saw, 12" bandsaw (maybe 10", don't remember), small planer and a 6" jointer along with an ok selection of hand tools including two mediocre planes. I also built a dulcimer and a bowed psaltry from scratch. I figured out how to bend wood using a bender made from some 2" pipe and a propane torch. I used a planer to get wood down to 1/8" then went the rest of the way with a plane and a random orbital sander.

When it came time to build an acoustic, and I'm still on #1, I started investing in more tools and building jigs cause I already know I want to build more.

Just do it - I bet you can ... and good luck!

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Welcome enthusiasm is the key, crappy planes can be tuned up look on youtube, I was given the wood for my back and sides and scraped and sanded to thickness, I bought pine mouldings for the braces rummaging through the racks in the DIY store for quarter sawn ones, and they had moulding for the linings as well I just put the saw cuts in. You'll have to cough up for the fingerboard and stuff but my first guitar cast less than £30 including strings lots of begging here and there.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Robert,

I am a 1st time builder (not done yet.... ) And I too have basically no $$$(after buying the initial wood). I have spent more money than I thought I would, but I am at about $350 for wood, and maybe $150 for tools. I do have access to my dad's shop (with some basic tools: drill press, table saw, and chop saw). Other than that, I only have a jig saw and a hand drill that I have used as far as power tools go. So, here's what I think about saving the cash -

Use those crappy hand planes! I have bought 2 old ones, and a generous uncle gave me another. I have about as many hours into fixing them as I do using them, but I now love them.

I bought 2 chisels, a used 1/2" and a nicer 3mm and they are all I use. (I would like more, but that = $)

I made a binding/circle cutter and did my rosette and just finished binding my guitar with it. It works, even if it took my about 20 hours to do what a nice laminate trimmer does in 3 minutes.

I think time, hard work, and innovation are your only options if you have no money. look at it this way, YOU HAVE A BANDSAW!!!!!!!!!!!! Hurrrray for you!!!!

Also, read about Wayne Henderson and how he uses his pocket knife for everything.

I think "low budget" luthiery is possible, but in all reality somewhat impractical. Even luthiers that use strictly hand tools often pay a pretty penny for the tools they are using. In the end, we all spend money. It's just a matter of where and how we spend it.

Much money spend by beginners often goes into specialty tools and jigs that are not really necessary, but just make a job easier or quicker. This in itself is fine since there's nothing wrong with wanting to do things more efficiently, but it can become a problem when purchasing these things stretches your budget and causes you to have to skimp out or cheap out on other more fundamental tools. So the biggest piece of advice I can give is to really think about where you do spend your money and keep in mind that more time and effort spent on your part often equates to less dollars spent on tools.

If anything, I would get a list of fundamental hand tools from the people on this forum and start by buying some high quality hand tools. I can tell you that a good set of chisels will often do a lot more for you than a bunch of jigs from SM or LMI or even some power tools. Other stuff I definitely wouldn't skimp out on is measuring equipment such as squares, rulers, and straight edges. You'd really be amazed how far off and inaccurate cheaper rulers and squares can be. Spend your money where it counts and then you can slowly invest on the optional tools and jigs over the course of your life as a luthier.

As for frustrations, I can definitely understand being frustrated (I think we all can...) but the important thing isn't the frustration, but your will to persevere. A first build can be a real pain in the ass even with the biggest array of tools in the world and I'm sure being limited to slow working tools can only add to the frustration, but you really have to try to see it in a different light. Being forced to do things slowly gives you more time to check for and correct mistakes and you also have less risk of REALLY screwing something up. Results will come slowly, but they will come and so long as you're mindful, they will be accurate.

Hi and welcome,

You might want to check with your local school board to see if they offer evening classes in wood working. They do here at a very modest price. In many cases the student can work on their own projects and use the tools as required. You will likely get a lot of interest if you're working on an instrument.

Good luck.

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Michael Lloyd

“I was born to ignorance, yes, and lesser poverties ...
I was born to privilege that I did not see ... I didn’t know it, but my way was paved” – John Gorka

It is possible, but if what you want is a good guitar, you are not going to build one cheaper than buying a good one.
Basically, you'll have to be a bum and borrow everything that you can, and bum machine time from people who have a more complete shop.

You will have to set aside a space to call your shop, and do what you can without power tools. As you move along you can gather tools.

Don't forget, guitars were built with only hand tools long before power came along.

Look up Kathy Matsuda's early web pages. She was just about power less early on.

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

Michael Jin...."the force is strong with him"... I agree with him totally.

Guitar building, especially your first, will demand things of you that no other woodworking venture will. One of those demands is good...accurate...tooling, which directly evolve or 'arrive' from one of two things; Your willingness to make an average tool that didn't cost a lot a great tool through blood sweat and tears....or....the money to simply buy the great tool. Many many times the elbow has been used to power tools. It was that way for a long time.

Materials - nothing says you can't use whatever you get your hands on. Just build. I mean....Taylor built a guitar out of pallet wood!!!...AND SOLD IT!!! Come on dude....know what I do?....I run around the neighborhood on trash day looking at people's trash!!! Yup...I said it....I own it...and I don't care! I totally SCORED doing this on an old 1940's mahogany dresser. DUDE!...talk about tone wood! TORRES BUILT A GUITAR OUT OF CARDBOARD!!!!!!!

You are going to have to birth solutions to problems you never had. Mostly because you won't have the money to just simply go buy a tool that was already designed for your specific problem. Stewmac has made a good living at providing these tools. There are a LOT of tools like that in luthiery. Make your own friggin tools. I have HAD to make so many things in my shop for guitar building. You are going to make mistakes that will cause you to challenge your own sanity...but if you pursue and you do not relent...you will make it happen.

My grandfather used to say "will it or skill it"....either way...get it done.

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There is no difference between the man that thinks he can....and the man that thinks he cannot.

I think that in a practical sense you trade money for time. If you are able to invest the time, you can save a lot of money. I use a hand plane that I made myself to shoot the glue joints for the top and back. I bought the blade and made the plane body from scrap oak. If I had more time I could have made/scrounged a blade. My glue jig for those same tops and backs is an old scrap shelf and the top of my workbench. In other things (cutting binding channels for one thing) I could not really think of a dependable accurate way to do a professional job by hand so I sprung for a binding jig.(money wel spent I think). I could have made a jig, but I didn't have the time so I paid.

You can do a fine job with your hands and lots of time is my point.

Welcome!!!!!!!!!

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http://www.booneguitars.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Stephen-Boone-guitar-builder/488208541257210

Almost any hand tool you need for lutherie can be made from scrap/salvage, it is, like Stephen says, time or money.

My brother just made a full set of chisels and carving tools from beat up old files. In the time it took him to grind them out, he could have gotten a job flipping burgers and been able to afford a set that upper middle class people everywhere would admire, but now he gets to say that he made his own chisels, how many people can do that.

Before you throw down on an expensive tool, ask around. You will get one of these answers-
"here is a cheap/free/modified/shopbuilt example of what you are looking for"
"that tool is not something you will ever need, save your money"
"bite the bullet, that is a cool tool that you cant live without, and you will never regret it"

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Good points Steven. Sometimes I find such a good deal on ebay, that I jump on it.

What is the budget? You can get good student tops for $10.00, you can scrounge alot of tools, but you also sort of need to know what you are scrounging.

Also, just because you make a blow-torch bending pipe for only $15.00 doesnt mean you will use it correctly.

If you have a ton of talent, handy with tools and all that, you could do it I guess, for what cost though? What is a must have tool? What can you do without? Just because you read 2 or 3 books, there might be another way to do this or that....

Heck, you could make a binding cutter with a knife taped to a straight piece of wood for all I know, it could be done. Are you really good with tools and stuff?

Its wierd but most people in lutheri seem to be related to engineering in some respects. I have not met an 'average guy' luthier, they all seem to be "high IQ" types.

Also, building guitars is exacting woodworking. That is why you hear about so many 'stupid' mistakes. On my first, everything I did was a learning curve, it was absurd.

I would start with the sound board first, do one or 2 of those, and add-on from there.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

I dunno, i think there might be more of us mouth breathers here than you think...

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Low budget luthiery sure is possible....
It just depends on what you need to buy.

If talking about tools....
You can make a side bender out of muffler pipe and a blow torch.... or you can make a side bender out of dumpster scrap plywood and 2x4's and light bulbs.

Aluminum roof flashing works well enough for side bending shims.... and it is *Cheap*

And you can make about every sort of jig and fixture on your own if you want. About my only weakness is Clamps... Lots and lots and lots and lots of clamps make life easy.

Otherwise, yard sales are full of Manna from Heaven.... Wonderful old tools that are just a little rusty... selling for Pennies.

Materials wise -- you can buy #3 bottom of the barrel grade tops *Really Cheap* if you poke around. They are *Very* colorful... and you may have to cut out a sap pocket and re-joint.... but mostly they are fine..... or you could go *Ultracheap* and make up a 13 piece top out of Resawn 2x4 strips... 2x4's are usually Spruce wood. Dumpster 2x4's also make fine brace wood.

I have made 2 of those 13 piece tops as Joinery practice so far.... Free... I am going to put at least 1 of them on a Guitar.... just to see what happens.

Back and side wood... think lumber and even cast off furniture. Oak, poplar, maple, cherry, walnut, and about every other type of wood will make a fine guitar. Old trashed furniture is also a fine source of back and side wood.... just gotta go poke around.

Good luck

John

I still like to occasionally build a guitar or lute solely with hand tools, indeed it's something I really enjoy even after building more than 30 instruments, and it's far more satisfying than using a machine and jig for each step. And, it's possible to get most of the tools you need cheaply from eBay, old Stanley/Record planes, good quality vintage chisels etc. Yes I think it's perfectly possible to build a guitar for minimal cost if that is what you want to do, you just have to be patient and inventive.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Didn't I read (in one of the old GAL magazines I think) of a Mexican luthier who made great looking/sounding classical guitars using just a pocket knife?

Dave F.

Neccessity is the mother of invention
And where there's a will there's a way
And there's no such thing as a dumb question
So ask and learn something new every day

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Cambrian Guitars

"There goes Mister Tic-Tac out the back with some bric-brac from the knick-knack rack"

I didn’t see anyone mentioning Cumpiano & Natelson’s book “Guitarmaking…” in this thread yet. As far as I’m concerned, it is still the most complete book on building a guitar available. More importantly in the context of this discussion, it focuses primarily on hand tool use and inexpensive and effective methods for most of the building steps. Most folks will tell you it is somewhat dated and in dire need of revisal, so be it. It will get you going without huge initial expenses on tools.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

The most out of date section of the Cumpiano/Natelson book (the dreaded pinned mortice neck joint) has been updated at http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/S ... block.html

It is a much better neck joint.

The book gives alternatives to using molds and radius dishes, and although those are two things that i put in the "must have" category, someone on a budget might appreciate Cumpianos methods here.

I still pull that book out several times a year.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Some really good reading on budget lutherie can be had on the Telecaster Discussion page. There is currently running the $100 challenge, build a Tele for under $100. The cost of the wood is not being counted, but most entries are scrounging their wood, too.

This thread has been particularly interesting for budget builder:
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-de ... quire.html

And is proof that creativity in problem solving is your most valuable asset.

OK, so building an acoustic is different than building a solid body electric, but there are many parallels. I build classicals (and my first Tele) and I like to build cheap while I explore different issues. I pull wood out of my stock and the only things that I really have to spend money on are the fret wire and tuning machines, and some little bits of wood that I may not have.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Absolutely, if you`re staying with luthiery being a hobby and not your bread and butter.
Coe

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Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,

As has already been stated ...sure you can. As far as materials are concerned in my first guitar, I had a 5 piece top sawn from a redwood post that was pretty well quartered. The sides were some flatsawn cherry 4/4 boards that a cabinetmaker buddy had given me. I bought some purpleheart and made my own binding. Neck was the same cherry, flipped on edge after sawn apart, laminated to make quartersawn. Rosette is cherry and purpleheart rings (they didn't turn out that well). I didn't make the bridge, got it with the fretwire from Grizzly. Tuners are the Gotoh 503s (cheaper than the 510s but not the cheapest tuners available). I bought the trussrod, but considered making my own. The fret position markers I bought from SM, but the side ones I drilled holes, CA glued some bamboo shish kabob skewers in and clipped them off, wicked CA into the ends and sanded.

Topwood--free
side/back--free
neck wood--free
bracewood--$15
bridge--$6
fretwire--$8 ish
tuners--$35
trussrod--$18
fretboard--$18
fret markers--$3
strings--$8
saddle/nut $5

So that's like $116 plus $5 worth of glue and $5 worth of Tru Oil. (forgot the bridge pins, so add another $6 or so)

I had a lot of tools to start with, and I make my own jigs and fixtures and sometimes adapt tools where I can. I made my own radius dishes, go bar deck, bending forms, molds, and scaled up the drawing in CN book for the bracing pattern. Of course all of that adds up too, but you can often find the materials for those if you look for them, or see different uses for things you already have. Tai Fu uses his stereo cabinet as a go-bar deck!

Todd is right about tools that can seem to be a bargain that end up costing you more than you think. So you have to think of the total cost that you will invest in that tool vs the returns you will get. For example, I've kicked around the idea of getting the fret saw and the templates to saw my own fretboards and I cant justify the $85 it will cost. At least not at this point. For the $9 LMI charges to radius and cut the fret slots, I can build $9 guitars before I hit that point. I may, however, try to cut it with WFRET and a hand saw, just to see if I can.

So, the bottom line is, yes it can be done, and you may end up becoming a better builder for the work that you do in learning the skills to do more by hand.

For the next one, I will be using some of RC Tonewoods, 2fer1 tops. $12.50 each. The B/S will be walnut I've resawn. I'll still be learning on the cheap and hopefully my fit/finish will improve, as well as learning more about the sound.
Darrin

Possible but not practical.

[am I being too brief again?]

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I imagine it is hard for a beginning woodworker to get any perspective on this issue, as there is a constant focus on high-end hand tools, exotic woods, and cabinetshop machinery. Several excellent comments have already been made here, but for what its worth, here are a few more:

My father was a regionally admired cabinetmaker and instrument maker who worked for decades with a 12" Sears Craftsman bandsaw that he bought in the early 1930s - his only bandsaw. He had a large shop, but did not see the need to resaw instrument wood himself. For a beginning guitarmaker, I believe it is not cost-effective to resaw your own wood, as the prices on the pre-sawn "lower esthetic" grades are pretty cheap.

Though he had several handplanes, the Stanley #60 block plane was the only one I ever saw him use. You can do everything you need to do on a guitar with one similar plane, and you would develop good skills in doing so. However, I do recommend a cleaned up old #5 also, to make life a bit easier in jointing.

His chisels were good ones, but not expensive for the time in which he bought them. Modern woodworkers might laugh at the stones he used for sharpening.

Todd and others have emphasized this in various ways, but it bears repeating in capital letters: YOUR MOST IMPORTANT TOOL IS YOUR SHARPENING SKILL. This is far more important than worrying about whether to buy a Blue Spruce or a handmade Japanese or a Lie-Nielsen or a Sears can opener. The sharpness that a new tool is shipped out with is TOTALLY UNIMPORTANT. If you can't sharpen an edged tool enough to shave your arm, then it is pointless who made it.

If you can sharpen your tools well, you need to know that the guitarmaking process is not otherwise very demanding on your tools. First, and not to be underestimated, is that there is not a lot of surface area on a guitar, as opposed to say a bed or chest of drawers. Secondly, guitarmaking does not involve much complex joint-making. In fact there is only one "complex" joint on a guitar, the neck-body intersection. The rest is all simple butt and lap joints that do not require the visible precision requirements of furniture dovetails or mortise-and-tenon. You glue two pieces of wood together and sand or scrape them flush.

Buy the Nickelson #49 or #50 rasp for less than half the price of the Auriou or TBT, and you will love it. And yes I have owned all of the above and more.

If you really must resaw something, look for a cabinetmaker or luther that is willing to do it for you, for a fee. In an hour, you can get more wood re-sawn than you will use in a year. Same with wide-belt sanding, if you want to keep the hand planing to a minimum.

You will not do better work with an expensive modern boutique chisel or plane than with a well prepared and sharpened older tool from ebay or the flea market. Don't get me wrong, I have owned some of these lovely modern tools, and they are very well made. But you can set up a 70 year old garage sale plane to take the same .0015" shaving that you get with the Lee-Nielsen. On a scale of tool desirability, sometimes its hard to tell where functional tool quality levels off and and mystical beliefs and/or self-image begins. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that by the way.

Brook

I think it was that tutorial that made me consider the WFRET program and I have downloaded it. I am certainly the type who will want to do something like that in the future. I think you can get the handsaw and miterbox for about $25, so I guess I don't have to shell out $85, and of course, being able to use other woods that I may already have on hand makes that appealing and would fall under the heading of low budget luthery.



True, but for me it was a matter of initially wanting to get some of the processes done at least once without worrying about messing up some very nice materials. I agree that in the long run, one will spend a fair amount of money to make quality instruments out of quality materials. It certainly isn't practical for professional builders to spend inordinate amounts of time fussing with a mickey mouse tool when there may be something that speeds production or improves accuracy to the point that its usefullness exceeds its cost. For a builder who is going to charge $3500 or more for a guitar to spend the time searching for a way to make a fret tang nipper so they can save $35, vs buying one from StewMac, vs spending an hour filing the tangs doesnt make a lot of sense. The hours they save can add up over the year to another instrument. For me the joy is in making the tool and saving the $35.

I thank everyone for their input! I am not really an amateur woodworker, just amateur luthier. I have most tools needed, although some inadequate. I would rather spend my miniscule budget on tools that i will use over and over again, than spend it on wood that i may screw up. acquisition of hardwood should not be much problem for the first few instruments, but top wood seems to be much harder to find(locally and cheap/free). I have already accepted needing to purchase, at the very least, lower grade top wood. I don't plan on spending $ on jigs and such, as i find pleasure in anything i can make myself. Time is not of huge concern YET. I am not rushing on any instrument, but I expect to have an efficient building process at some point. I do not like to waste setup time, so eventually i will build more than one instrument at once. When I have been better off financially in the past, i got in the habit of wasteful spending. I can't do that anymore, so purchases must be necessary.

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It is better to try and fail, than never try at all

I started out building dulcimers on a table in the bedroom of my apartment. Since then I've done a lot more work with hand than power tools. I've got a shop full of stuff, but the 90-10 rule holds: you do 90% of the work with 10% of your tools.

You don't need most of the stuff on the market. I've done all of my joining with the same #4-1/2 Record plane for more than thirty years. Once you tune a plane up, it stays tuned. I've done all of my fretting with a claw hammer and a wood block. In a pinch I do binding routs with a marking gauge, chisel and file. It takes some time, but there's no loss of accuracy. One thing you find out is that hand tools can be very quick, once you learn to use them.

And once you learn to sharpen them. You can't do accurate work with dull tools, and that's the only kind of work that's good enough for lutherie. You're never really in control of a dull tool, and that goes just as strongly for power tools as hand tools.

The first things I'd buy that plug in would be a heat blanket and a router. With the router you can make all the jigs you could want. A 'horse collar' jig and a bending form will do more to improve your speed and accuracy than almost anything else, and you can make them in a day. After those I'd go for a small table-top drill press.

A go-bar deck goes a long way toward filling up the clamp requirements. It can be as simple as a piece of plywood screwed to the ceiling over your bench.

C&Ns 'popsicle stick trick' for cutting out a rosette channel works perfectly. Just because it looks crude doesn't mean it is.

My first fret saw was a hacksaw blade with the teeth ground down.

My favorite chisel is one I ground out of a rusty Nicholson 6" double extra slim three-square file that I got at a yard sale. Great steel, and it's lasted me more than thirty years.

One of the great things about lutherie is that there's so much you can learn.
Use this time to learn real hand-tool chops, and you'll be that much better a maker when you can afford the power tools. Maybe you'll even decide you don't want or need them!