Official Luthiers Forum!

I am probably guilty of having told someone who asked a question, that there had been a recent discussion of just that subject, and that a search might give them the answer. I would normally post a link to said thread, if I had a minute to do the search. Otherwise, I would try to provide a subject or a poster name to help find the topic.

I, for one, am not turned off by someone telling me of an existing thread or to search the archives if done in a helpful manner. Anyone can give help that way, even if they do not have the experience to answer the question. Sometimes it's faster than waiting for the right answer. More often, now, though, it is a recommendation of a tutorial that is in the tutorial area.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I think it is a good idea to wade through as much of the archives as you can stand when becoming a part of any on line forum, but if nobody asked any questions there would be no forum!

Also, even if some topic has been beat to death in the past, new ideas or more current attitudes might surface with a new thread, started by a question that could have been answered in the archives.

I think as long as there is some evidence that the poster has put a little bit of thought into the question, and isnt just asking to be spoon fed, most everybody will be happy to contribute whatever they think is appropriate.

New threads are what keep forums like this interesting, so, ask away.

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Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

Waddy,

There is nothing wrong with your approach. We may be splitting hairs here, but I think most of us would agree that when the RTFM attitude arrises, we can all recognize it. And I will say it again, I have never seen it on this forum.

Mike

I just want to build guitars. I don't care if the information is readily available in your PM box or whether you have to search for it- it's all part of the fun. C'est La Vie.

If the information isn't there- just try it anyway and see what happens.

It's what the pre-internet luthiers had to do....

Attitude!!! You hit it right out of the park, Sam

That's exactly what I was talking about! ...and it actually was apparent about 2000 posts ago

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Actually, Mike, I have twice recently (once on this, once on another forum) been sharply criticized in pm's for giving brief advice (along the lines of "don't do that, it's a bad idea," or "that won't work"). For this I have been called "rude," "curt," and my advice "stupid." One of my motives for posting is to keep someone from making a mistake that may ruin many hours of his work. I may not feel like taking several minutes at my slow typing speed to explain. But I am gathering that this kind of brief advice is best not given.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Howard is correct .
It's hard for a experienced(fill in the blank) to answer questions without sounding like a teacher that is a bit testy sometimes.

Quite honestly some questions are not answerable !
(new word)
Most of the long time makers had to learn by doing it-make mistakes or having success !!!
How do you teach experience????

MIke
Sorry if this seems to short .
I can't type also !!

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Mike Collins

Me thinks we are all in violent agreement.

I am no angel, I have made my share of mistakes in here, but, when I realize it or am cajoled into realizing it, I try to do my best at repairing it. I try to remember that what I say on line should be the same as what I would say face to face. Now, again, I have failed at this before, but I do try. And, for someone to send a rude PM (Howard's case,) well that is not nice behavior. But better it be in a PM then aired in public. Howard, I would just ignore such folks.

Fillipo, I have never seen you not be helpful. But you are right (as Waddy also said.) There are two RTFM attitudes, one is helpful, the other is a bat... and it is not hard to tell the difference. Whatever. New folks are going to come in here all the time and ask the same questions over and over. Thats a good thing!

My biggest regret here? Getting in a tussel with Kim over epoxy. How stupid can I be? My first post was under the influence of flu and flu drugs (narcotics). NEVER do drugs and post... thats the lesson I learned from that. I hope one day I can get in better graces with Kim.

Mike

I have to agree with this. As much as I respect your work and knowlesge Howard, I don't think anyone whould do or not do something only based on the fact that somebody else with greater experience told them not to do so. One should always understand why he/she is doing something.

Basically, just saying 'I wouldn't do that' without explaining why, even just a little, does not help the person who asked the question in the first place.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I couldn't disagree more. If I have a dumb idea, I would very much appreciate someone with more experience telling me. If they don't have the time or interest to explain it to me in detail, I understand.

With most forums it becomes pretty clear that there are some people with real insight and some without. I would much rather have 5 words from the former than 50 from the latter.

I think the rudeness Howard described is a case of people with a sense of entitlement and thin skins chasing away the pros. (Alain be sure this comment is not directed at you.)

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

Some website forums have "classic" threads available (in a place where people can easily browse them.) I am sure many here could name 3-5 such threads. And by the time we got done with it, those threads would cover guitar building from soup to nuts. It would be nice if we did something like that here. Of course, the threads are closed. Perhaps we could have a few of these put up and voted upon. If a thread gets a certain number of positive votes, then it is kept in the brain trust location.

Mike

The thread on armadillos was a classic!!

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I thinkits easier if you have been a lurker for a while, you read and start to form an understanding of the charaters and 'cyber' personalities on here and so most wont be puit off by a short response to 'Stop' right now before you ruin what you ahve done - its good sound advice! You begin to respect certain posters by seeing tehir work and also be the respect given to them by others - so its not an issue.

I think where it maybe becomes one is that sometimes the best way to learn is not to take everything at simple face value, and ask (politely and respectfully) for an explanation so that we can increase our understanding? And I would gather that its not that the pros like Howard are unwilling, but that they as professionals simply dont always have the time to spend providing the detail - and we also have to appreciate that some pros also teach, so why would they provide valuable knowledge for free when its something that contributes to their income (which as we know, its not like there are hundreds of Luthier millionnaires out there!)

For me it gets interesting when the pros disagree with each other

Hello to All- been so long since I posted, forgot username and P word. Thanks for the rescue, Lance.
I wanted to comment here. I tend to read all of the threads-even when I think I know the answer. Sometimes I have search battles. More importantly, though, I think new luthier questions are often valuable to us all(I am still a new luthier- I haven't finished my first re-entry into luthierie). Many different things came together to interrupt my eager original re-entry. What I want to say is that the new folks' questions and the answers still offer new knowledge. So many experienced luthiers have different approaches to a problem. So, I value the answers from those who have time.

I tend to be a bit direct, myself, so I related well to Mario's contributions- I was on the receiving end of more than one of his terse replies, but I still learned. I do not find a recommendation to "Search" along with a start of an answer to be unfriendly-so often, that start is what unlocks the search. A blunt response that says, " Use the search, idiot, and don't waste my valuable time," whether spelled out or not can destroy enthusiasm.

Therefore, I think a "Newbie" question section destroys the sharing that is the true virtue of a forum. I am quite experienced in many aspects of handtools, but I always read Todd Stock's posts. I learn a new perspective from many of them. That is just one example.

So, please do not start up a "New luthiers' Limbo" - it will stifle new blood. Thanks for reading, Mike Tobey

I'm ok with short answers and have received a number of them from Mario and others.

When they say "don't do it that way" then my response is to do more research in archives or elsewhere, and more thinking about the problem, followed up by another question that is, hopefully, closer to the mark. Invariably I will get another answer that indicates "you're on track" , "maybe you might look at this", or some other quick answer which guides my learning.

I am thankful that folks that are way more knowledgeable than I am about luthiery are willing to take the time to provide a little direction. I spend a lot of time studying archives and other resources. Quite often one of the pros will take the time to provide a longer and more-detailed answer which I certainly appreciate but don't necessarily expect.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Hi Mike! Good to see you back.

I am most certainly opposed to a "Newbie" section. I hope nobody thought that was what I was referring to.

But, there are some threads that are simply the best of the best. And they get filed away in the archives. Its a darn shame. I mean sometimes one does not even know what or how to search for the answer. I would like to see some of these brought into a "Closed" forum where users old and new alike can peruse them. I know for a fact that I would read through them. I do believe that would actually spark even more interesting questions in the main forum.

Mike

I would take a short answer from you Howard and be glad for it....
I actually saw someone on another forum say once that Howards Dovetail Madness guitar looked dumb!!! I personally think its a masterpiece, the best kind -> a functional one!
So it just goes to show you, there are all kinds of people and opinions out there, some more informed than others... and I think thats what this is all about... really...
We need people of well informed opinions (rather than mabye the phrase superior knowledge) in order to make the forum a site where there is potential for great learning...
These folks that learn now, will one day teach, just like those from whom they learned.
Its a matter of treating the well informed, respected, and admired luthiers... well, and being grateful for any info recieved..
But asking when you could simply research... is one way of subtly disrespecting these great folks... IMO
There are a few different questions, but the 2 main ones I find are voiced on the OLF are how? and why?
Why seems to be more valuable as a question,,, because if one understands they why - then they will nearly always be able to find out the how...
I am really grateful for all the responses here in this thread..!!
I think of all the threads Ive started, this may be the longest...
More importantly
Thanks for all your help here as I close in on finishing #'s 1 and 2 - Everyone!
Its taken me a while, and I think some probably thought I never would finish one.... but I started from scratch... and have needed to tool up on a very limited budget....
but as I near completion, all I can think about is building more and more!!!!
You all inspire me greatly
Cheers
Charlie

Kinda defeats the purpose of a forum, when you segregate newbies from the pros - dontcha think?

Having newbies too scared to ask a question of the pro's, again, defeats the purpose of a forum.

As to telling them to "Read The Archives!". Well, that's one of the reasons why a lot of us dumped MIMF in the early days of the OLF, isn't it? (it'd also help if the archive here was a little easier to search, my first attempt for "OLF SJ", returned no hits!)

Gonna get pretty quiet around here when all questions have been answered and are in the archives.

It ain't broke, so it don't need fixing.

I am a newbie and really appreciate the experienced luthiers and Pros who take the time to help out those of us trying to get stated. I have received short answers on this forum and others, but I did not find them inappropriate. To one of my questions on the MIMF, Mario once responded "Why?" that lead to a follow up that helped me. If I see Mario or Howard or any of the other talented luthiers on this forum take the time to respond to one of my questions, I appreciate them taking time.

That said, I have seen online threads turn nasty too easily. I am glad that is not usually an issue on this forum. In general, I would say that I tend to be a lurker on forums rather than an active participant just because I find it silly how easily an online thread turns into an online argument.

Greg

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Greg Hatcher
North Carolina

Forums are interesting places to say the least. I am impressed they work as well as they do considering the huge number of perspectives and personalities. The OLF is the most polite and enjoyable forum I have been on. I think all of us can be unaware of how we come across to others at times. The internet can make this even more difficult. The potential for miscommunication is high.

I cant say enough how enjoyable it has been to start the process of building a guitar. Such an incredible balance. So much to be learned. The mystery of it is one of the most attractive aspects. In our day and age of technology and packaged everything it is refreshing. The connection between a player and a guitar is an incredibly close one. For me anyways. Many late nights plucking away. Writing down lyrics. Enjoying a nice group of chords. I cant wait to experience this connection with an instrument built with my own hands.

Many of my previous projects working on boats and airplanes have been higher stress. Knowing your life will be literally hanging on your work. My job is the same. Dealing with equipment that can kill you or someone else in a second keeps you on your toes. What a nice change to be working on something with a little less risk. There is much to be learned but no reason to be intimidated.

Thanks
Craig

Before I say anything else, I would like to first state that most of the questions I asked in the past have been answered with generosity by many experienced builders and some even went the extra mile(thanks Todd.S)

I have been on this forum for couple years now...but still on my first guitar so I'm still a very newbie.
To be honest, threads like this and the other one that talks about "experienced builders" do intimidate me. WHY? because I have asked many questions that are already covered in archives and wonder if my current questions or future questions are worthy. Also, for the last few days I have been limiting my questions and just having to suffice with answers I find in the archives due to subconsious filter and guilt I created for my self after reading this kind of thread.

As a newbie,

I sometimes ask questions to get an update. If the last time someone talked about...say "what brand of heating blanket?" a year ago, I would like to get the most up to date experiences and opinions before spending $140 even if I can get 5 pages of response via search function.

I somtimes ask questions to get a live answer ... and to fellowship. I feel that with the archive that we have, all my questions that I had or have in the future is pretty much already covered. Should I not ask any questions that it's probably in archive?

Those of us who visit acousticguitarforum.com probably know that "adi vs..", "brazillina vs...",etc is part of what makes the newbie feel welcome altough it gets asked once a week.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. It's Just my honest thoughts...

Sky...In the interest of allaying your concern about asking questions, let me suggest a way that could solve your dilemma with the following example.

"I'm interested in getting information on heating blankets and how to use my existing router speed controller to control temperature. I searched the archives and found that the controllers offered for sale with the devices from XXX have the following electrical requirements whereas my controller differs in this way... Can someone help me make sense out of that information and help me to decide on whether I can use mine or need to purchase that specific controller."

In this example, you indicate that you've already done some legwork and need further assistance. It should relieve your concern as well as indicate to all that you are more serious then the average person, and respectful of others' time. The last thing we want to do is have folks become reluctant to ask questions and not think their issues are "worthy".

I realize that there will be some personalities out there that will always find the forum intimidating and resist asking a question on an open forum. To those, I would suggest PMing me or anyone else with whom you feel comfortable. In my case, I'll do anything I can to help.

Good luck on your build...we're all looking forward to seeing it when completed!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Sky
I was apprehensive that, perhaps this subject might make some people feel a little sheepish about posting - I never wanted to make anyone feel this way...
This is just a sideshoot of the other discussion.. and a food for thought thread - rather than a set in stone, deliberation!
First off... the amount of these threads that could be researched better are relatively few.. and most here are extremely respectful of others here on the OLF... and its rare that we see outright disrespect to another member...

So these questions are more food for thought....IMO
it aint broke and it wont be fixed, so I imagine business as usual is fine, incl the nature and amount of so called novice posts that popped up before this discussion,,,
I asked what I did and said what I said, because for me what Todds discussion provoked inside was the realization that I am far more capable than I give myself credit -
Im no novice woodworker, Im no novice with wood either... however I am a novice when it comes to "fine woodworking" having been mainly a wood butcher most of my adult life(construction and some cabinet making),,, and even more a novice when it comes to specialty woodworking applications like luthiery...
Im confident I can forge on in this craft with less deliberation and more assurance, and not have to have my hand held every step of the way!
This isnt to say I wont have questions, or ask about the kinds of operations that a seasoned luthier would have performed countless times throughout thier career...
I suppose that elementary like most things in life is all relative..
Please dont stop posting on account of this thread or any other?
It wasnt the intention of these discussions Im sure....
Cheers
Charlie

I find this a very interesting thread because I have spent my entire adult life in the education business. And I have taken up guitar building over the last few years. And used the forum for the last couple years. I must admit that some of my early posts sound a little dumb to me now. If you don't want to answer what you think is a poor post you don't have to. I have received alot of help and information and I have got it fast so that I could move on to the next set of questions in the process. As an educator I think this type of forum is wonderful because it allows you to get input from many people that can show several ways to do something or solve a problem. I am still trying to evolve my process that feels comfortable for me giving my skill level and tools I have. I enjoy answering posts that I think I can offer helpful information. Thought I am new at Guitar making I have been doing woodworking for thirty years, have an advanced Art degree, sold woodworking machinery for ten years-Inca, Kity, Mini-Max, and taught for thirty plus years. I am not trying to lay out my resume but showing that all of use have alot that we bring to the table. Forums are a way to help people and get help. My two cents -again if you think a post is not worth answering don't answer it. Bill the Greenman

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Mistakes are mandatory-learning from them is optional. http://www.opensourceluthiersupply.com