Official Luthiers Forum!

Reading ToddStocks "Question for Experienced Luthiers" really got me thinking,,,
in a good way - Sometimes there is something that is hanging in the air and only one person in a room will voice it...
Sometimes it takes one to voice it before others really consider the consequences of an action... or series of actions...
Toddstock has a valid concern with young luthiers, perhaps clouding the boards with mundane questions that essentially could be answered with a little research, and actuallly mean more to the person asking, because it would be digested more thoroughly for all the legwork put in..
How many times have you asked a question on the OLF just because you know someone would pipe up??? - even though its something you could easily discover for yourself, ???
Reading the archives is something that is essentially expressed to beginners here over and over again - its true...
And I imagine it getting tiring for those of much experience who have to express it constantly.
I know Im guilty of it...... posting questions on things that I could discover on my own,,,but after reading the responses in Todds thread.... and digesting it somewhat, I personally will consider what Im going to ask here (and elsewhere) and decide whether its something I really need help with... or whether its something I can more thoroughly appreciate if I were to research it more, and understand it better on my own, with the aid of resources I have access to, without taking up someones time.
I dont want to lose the quality resource of experience here, just because of laziness on the part of I and others just begining in luthierie..
Mabye there should be a beginners section... where those who want to help absolute novices could, I realize that there is a kit section - Im not sure if it was put there for this purpose, but not all beginners want to build kits - despite some people feeling its the best way to get grounded in luthierie....
Anyhow - these are conclusions Ive reached -
Im not saying that people shouldnt ask questions here that they need answers to, but mabye a little research on thier/our parts first,, to see if they we could answer the question ourselves first,,,, may make this forum a better place for those whose help they seek also

A large part of it could be time. I generally write my questions down and leave them anywhere from 1 to 24 hours before I post, because alot of times I have found the answer while I'm waiting.

Other times, as on other forums, it is convienient to do. The 13th Fret seems more cranky in these reguards, or some of the posters sure are...

Problem is we are all used to 'instant satisfaction', because it could take 2 to 60 minutes to do some research on the subject. I don't think it can be managed out. Its easier to get the info from someone else than it is to research it alot of times, and when you don't find the answer after doing said search, you get frustrated, and go back to the quick and easy. Its also part of human nature to 'pass on' the knowlege to the next generation so to speak. As we have lost that connectiveness, we can sub in by doing stuff on the internet message boards. I think there is a bit of a thrill when you give someone an answer and it helps them out. There are endorphines working here.
After all, how many times do people actually ASK YOUR opinion on anything? Most times people DONT listen to YOUR common sense, do they??

I actually have folders for some peoples posts also, Like Alan, and Toddstock...

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Great post;
It would be benificial to all-the beginners section !
When people get involved with a new indevor it's neccessary & great to talk to others in the same position.

There could be a question & answer session also.


Mike

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Mike Collins

I try to research as much as I can before asking, but sometimes all you can find as an answer will be like, "don't do this that way, it's not good". Ok... but why?! I mean, when you know the consequences of your actions, like "why isn't good? What will it do or how will it react in the long run?", stuff like that, that's what really helps you get better and avoid future possible mistakes. So that's the part of the answer I will come here to get. I don't know if that answers your question...?

But I agree with him, lots of people don't make the effort of searching... be it on or off this forum... but like you, I've been guilty of doing it... .

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Olivier Gauthier
Montreal, QC

Folks,
I dont want to sound to lazy my self, But one of this things that I never want to happen here at the OLF is
to create a " fear to ask" environment for anyone, let alone beginners.

I do agree that reading reading and more reading of the archives and the main forum his a great place to start.

BUT if you have a quick question and are looking for a quick answer. I say ASK IT!
NOBODY is obligated to answer, ever. But 10 times out of 10 you will get help quickly and with a smile!

That is my policy and im stickin to it

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

You often get better answers when you search first. Many times there are long threads with lots of discussion. So if you want good answers search first.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

I personally suggest that both approaches are correct, but should be combined, by all means ask the question, but first do the research in the archives. Why? Because giving the right answer is not usually a problem for the more experienced builders here. No, the hard part is asking the right question, research will help you to formulate the right question.

I'm a professional academic research scientist, and believe me it's finding the right question that is the hard part.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

One thing I've recently started doing and is a suggestion for all newbies after a while you start to find old grey beards whose way of building, advice, unique construction, maverick attitude etc that you find more benificial and like the style you'd like to adopt I now go into their profile and view all their post and start to see if they're recent enough the posts that formulated their style or how they answer posts that interest you. I've read the secret sayings of Dave White, Colin S, Alan Currath, Howard Klepper and Mike Collins so far I'm at the moment finding the forum stagnating for me, but I can find fresh and interesting articles in the archives.

I must say that I tend to struggle with the search engine to find what I'm after so I'll hold my hands up to having bogged down the place with the reciprocal questions on binding, bracing, finishing and I thank those here for bearing with me

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

I can't speak for everyone. In fact, I know that I don't. But I certainly qualify as an inexperienced luthier. When I have asked a question here, I have generally done so after a good bit of research here, on other forums, on Google, and on YouTube. Most of my questions are fairly easy for an experienced luthier to answer, and they have probably been answered before. They're just not in a place where they can easily be found through a search. And there's so much information here, it's hard to tackle it all.

I understand that this is a place where a number of very experienced luthiers who could command a price for their time give away advice for free. While I can't speak for everyone, let me just say from one inexperienced luthier, thanks to all the kind people that have been willing to help.

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David Morris

That is precisely what I was thinking, just not as eloquently as Colin.

Well said Colin!

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"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I decided to come out of the lurking closet for this one. On guitars I am about as inexperienced as they come having not yet completed #1. I have built ukes and one mandolin and have found this forum to be an invaluable resource as I slowly plan for my first guitar build. Personally, I feel that I have a responsibiity to search here and elsewhere for an answer before posting a question, and I have so far always found an answer. But when the day comes that I come up empty handed, I will feel comfortable asking because I have seen just how great everyone here has been and how free you all have been with your excellent advice. I look forward to the day when I can join in and help a newcomer, and hope that the OLF remains a welcoming place for all regardless of experience.
Mike M.

I consider myself somewhat experienced, but I have an opinion anyway.

Before the internet and all the forums, a beginner had a much steeper learning curve, and early guitars usually had many more errors.

The probability of a first build being a successful guitar is much greater now, with all the available resources.

I don't see the downside of any of this. If you are going to build something, and not just yak about it, learn all you can from others, just be grateful and know your place, newbie!

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hWell, I will prolly get blasted for this...but I have never been a fan of the RTFM clique. Or, "don't ask questions before you search the archives" group. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING turns me off faster to a forum then for someone on a forum to suggest such a thing to me. And, I have never had a mod or admin do that. Its always some big post number person who feels that it is within their rights to suggest such a thing (and it is within their rights to do so.) But should they? I look at forums like OLF as open discussions. If ever the time comes when we as a group feel that newbies are underserving of a quick and professional answer, regardless of the nature of the question, then we as a group will have become non-essential to the process and will have turned the place into an exclusive club.

Sorry guys. If you want to make a newbie feel small (and unwanted), then tell them to search the archives. Works every time.

BTW, I have never had anybody do that here. Nor have I seen anybody do it either. OLF has always made me feel welcome and the good folks here have always entertained my endless list of questions. Thank you for that!

Mike

Edit: BTW, if I were insane enough to actually run a forum, I would put in the TOS a rule saying that no member could tell another member to "search the archives" before asking a question.

There is a corollary to this, which is that if someone gives you a quick answer, that is more than they were obligated to give, and more than you had to begin with. Consider that before complaining that you expected to get an education along with your answer.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

But who on this forum is complaining? While I agree with your corollary, I fail to understand the need to state it in light of the fact that I have yet to see someone complain in a manner that your corollary suggests.

Mike

I would agree with both Lance and Howard! On the one hand whjat makes this site so attractive and popular is the the courteous and friendly nature which even the most simple questions are usually asked. I myself asked a while back about 12 sring bracing patterns and got a short and swift reply together with an archive link - someone took the trouble to help we with the search, I presume because they saw the low post count and simply wanted to help a newbie to the site navigate around and find what they were looking for - was not expecting a lengthy detailed response, and the link proved invaluable... nothing more expected, greatful ofthe help! Perfect.

I think there are also two types of question about the same thing. The simple 'how to'? which can usually be found in the archives or from other sources, but its often helpful to read alternatives or get tips better ways, and then the second which apears a simple question, but is looking for opinion on WHY things mioght be better done one way or another... and thats usually wher you can get as many opinions as responses, often with Pros themselves othering alternative views .... which can be a little confusing but is actually GREAT. It highlights the fact that there are different solutions that will provide subtle differences, each with their own merits, and this in turn is one of teh bifggest attractions to instrument making, the mysteries associated with it.

I think why there might be the odd occasion when newbies feel put out by some responses that are short, sharp and on the very rare occasion considered unhelpful, is because we DONT expect pros to suddenly drop everything and answer a simple question in an instant, we appreciate the time pressures and also that some things are better learned through trial and error and practical experience, but if an experienced/pro DOES respond, has taken the time to read the question and then only gives a very terse answer (and this is very rare), you wonder WHY? I have no problem with someone NOT having the time to answer the same question for the 100th time, or even not really wanting to reveal their own trade secrets, something they have spent many years developing and working hard on, but if thats the case, is it not better to simply not respond rather than perhaps risk giving the wrong impression by a short response?

On our part we need to appreciate that more to, that pros who earn their living by this simply dont have the time to always respond in detail, or are perhaps also quite rightly expecting others to LEARN some things fro themselves as they have done over many years.

Finally as I mentioned on the other thread, its also about how we perceive our own 'inexperience' v that of the pros. By that I mean, how many of us have built a first instrument, taken a huge amount of time, attention to detail and patience and built something better than a $5000 factory guitar? That's not saying we sudenly ahve all the answers and experience is relative and tehre is a HUGE amount still to learn, but it does perhaps provide an insight as to why some may feel that they should be able to debate with pros rather than just take responses at face value all the time?

The key, is to ensure that such debate is respectful, courteous and appreciative of the time, especially that which pros take out of the shop to help and answer to help out the newbies... and it has to be a mutual two way thing.

hi guys ..heres my view from a novice and person with
a bad internet connections point of view
i do try to research into something for a good while
before i ask in the forum but alot of the time i dont know
the spicific name of what ever it is im looking for

i.e im just getting into building and have very little money but ive
got alot of patience and determanation
im always looking for the homemade method
my next project is making radius dishes by hand with templates
or something of the sort
id be chisiling away for hours and proberly mess it up
come back and have to ask a question and then someone
would tell me how to do it with a drill or something

another thing i have to say about it is
im sure everybody has 1 technique doing some job
thats better than everybody elses and if me mr novice
asks someone about the job thats this mans speciality
it could be a time saving tip to other luthiers or better results exc
no matter how much i learn theirs always some wee thing that i miss
tomas

...but Mike sometimes thats where the best answer is. If I happen to know there are good detailed discussions of intonation in the archives telling someone to look them up is good advice.

I'm of the opinion that you will ask a better question, and understand the answer better if you spend a little time thinking about it and researching before you ask.

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David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I would totally agree, I think its just sometimes, because of the nature of web postings, should answers can appear to be quite terse and 'enflame' - hense the invention of smilies to ensure the context is not misunderstood. Think thats what causes most of the trouble.

When someone says "Search the archives" they are assuming that the person asking the question has not done so...I've been told this, after I had searched the archives and not found the answer. Yeah...it puts you off when you have attempted prior research and you get that response. BUT...I have often tailored my question after initially searching the archives and not finding the answer to my specific question. No one here is obligated to answer a question, and I am very appreciative to anyone who does give me an answer; as long as it's addressing my question. If I ask a question, I've already searched the archive. Some people here (Hesh) have a very nice way of suggesting that someone search the archive, without being offensive, and has often posted the link to the question asked. I commend him for this. And a few can come off a little gruff, stopping just short of saying "search the archive, dumb#%%".

Another thing that puts me off is someone taking the time to write some terse remark that makes people hesitate to even ask a question because they don't want to get flamed by someone who comes off as an "experienced" poster. There was only one person here that could do that, in my opinion, and get away with it. Anyone who has been here for over a year knows who I'm talking about, and Mario could do it in a way that made you think, which was beneficial.

I have sometimes asked questions just to see if I'm on the same track as my OLF "buddies". After all, this is a sort of place of fellowship, where we all can get together from around the world and compare notes with our "friends". Let's keep it that way. I've learned quite a bit here, and hope to continue doing so. I say, read the book(s), search the archives, tailor your question to your specific need, and ask if you need to.

flame away.....I'm rubber, your glue........

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Brad Tucker

The way I see it is there are three different things that happen here on a regular basis.

1. Someone, (anyone) of any skill level may pop in and ask a question, and more often than not get a quick answer, maybe not the "100% correct I do it this and and its the only way" answer. BUT an answer none the less.
Armed with the answer to their question he/she can now quickly return to there project in a very timely fashion. I see no need for a full on time draining archival search for this reason.

2. Someone will ask a question that is NOT time sensitive, but rather just for the sake of a good discussion. Again, no need to search the archives if your motive is just to stir the minds of people and get a good discussion started.

3. Someone will make a comment or ask a question just to start a conversation with like minded folks and look forward to a good chat. Nothing serious, just fun.

The archives are there for anyone at anytime to use for there own research.
I often read them during my coffee breaks at work. Its a good use of that time

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I don't think that would be such a good idea. I don't see experience luthiers checking in on a beginner section often enough to make it worth while.

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http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

To my way of thinking, Colin's advice goes a long way in identifying the kind of inexperienced builder who becomes a successful student and will eventually become a competent experienced builder...ask the question the right way and you might even be able to provide yourself with an acceptable answer. Along with that, an attitude of enthusiasm, willingness to work and appreciation for the pro's time goes a long way in engendering a climate of caring and helpfulness. Intelligent followup questions based upon information given and tried will further promote even higher level discussions in my experience.

After 6 years of participating on forums and observing, I'll bet I can peg who will be a successful rookie within their first 20 posts...and it's all attitude IMO. Come on with a sense of entitlement, thin skin and intolerance and you have one strike against you. Ask questions without obviously reading or researching or actually trying things on your own first...strike two. Accept suggestions without ever trying them and following up...you might as well take up the effort on your own, because you just struck out. And believe me...reputations matter just like in real life. Someone with the same lack of experience can get all kinds of help if they show a willingness to work hard and do the legwork on research before even posing the question. In the process, you might even teach the pro something but at the least, he will be more inclined to help...because it will also help him to reach one of his goals...to become a successful teacher by giving forward!

During a similar discussion years ago, I asked Mario why he even took the time to hang on the forums and suffer through the elementary questions and same difficulties discussed by rookies. He answered by stating that it was worthwhile waiting for the nuggets of knowledge, experience and wisdom that come along and even advance the body of knowledge for the pros. More importantly for us, he stated that he had a desire to teach and give forward. I made the comment that I would do my best to make him reach his goal and become a successful teacher. So IMO, it's the convergence of rookie goals and the goals of the pro that we should always remember...until we have reached those initial goals, leave the nest and try to give forward ourselves. It's really quite simple.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I like what I've seen Rod True do.

Search the Archives and post links to the asking party.

Service with a smile. Rod Rules!

I have a problem with searching the archives, wading through extraneous archived material. So many words in a search are found in similar unrelated threads. It takes time to search archives.

Memorable Moment: One day spraying lacquer, I was getting cotton out of the gun. I had all the right stuff, but it wasn't working. Sylvan Wells pipes up in three minutes with a suggestion. Within two more minutes I did what he said and was spraying pure smooth as glass lacquer out of my gun onto the guitar. It was magic. I'd hate for that opportunity for others to change.

I agree that the archives are there for a reason, but they can be unwieldy at times. Is unwieldy a word? If not, this question will for all time be found "in the archive".

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Dave,

I TOTALLY agree!!!!

What I am saying is that suggesting to somebody, anybody, to search the archives is one of those answers that can cause more problems then it solves. It (no matter how one phrases it) just comes off as insensitive. Where I typically see this kind of stuff is on Linux forums. I cannot remember seeing it here. Hesh is a very good example of doing it right. Instead of suggesting one should search the archive, he will do it himself and provide the link. Now that is being nice and helpful all at the same time.

Mike