Official Luthiers Forum!

Yes, to a large extent you are right and I agree. But I have also seen this sentiment go too far.

I have run into folks who don't want to share information about suppliers thinking that part of paying your dues is ferreting out suppliers of the best fiber, or veneer sheets in a wide range of thickenesses or whatever. To me that is petty. Perhaps they SHOULD make you work (and think) for some of the information but not sharing that kind of info seems a bit childish. (Wood suppliers are a bit of a different story I suppose)

With respect to searching the archives of the OLF and other forums. You're right there are a lot of good ideas out there, but sometimes it is also worth asking so you can try and solicit info from folks who you know and trust. There is much information out there -- some of it is great, some of it isn't. Getting info from folks you trust seems prudent to me.

But your point is well taken. There is no progress without struggle.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

i know the question was asked about being part of the forum (and that led to all kinds of side tracks), so maybe the question could have been "why do experienced builders help out inexperienced builders?" how's that for avoiding all past olf baggage

i'm coming from the inexperienced side and can say, nearly without exception, that i've received help from everyone of whom i've asked it. (the one exception was not getting a reply to an email that may very well not have gotten through.) so with some who know a lot, they share in a forum. but others are generous by email. some in print or dvd. others in person.

in my experience, guitar makers are a generous lot. the old fashioned idea of having an apprentice and passing on the trade through employment is gone, but a sense of responsiblity for passing on the trade is alive and well. i think we can count ourselves lucky to be part of this! as a rule, ask an intelligent, informed question that proves you are spending time in your own workshop, and you will receive an intelligent, informed answer and maybe even an invitation to visit and learn in someone else's workshop.

the key for all of us who benefit is to realize that for every bit of insight we gain from others, we also gain what comes along with it - the same responsibility to share generously.

phil

Believe what you want all, but the NEW Generation is INSTANT Gratification and they really don't give a ding D. They only want the gist of things and they will make the final decision.

Based on what? What THEY think is correct (or want).

That being the course, this country is in bigger trouble than anyone thinks it is because they have being doing this for the past 15 years at all levels of personal and business life. We, the older generation, are the recipients of this and paying for it Now,the trivial problems with guitar building are nothing in context to what's really happening in the real world. We are only pawns in the game and very, very small fish in the oceans.


I apologize in advance for my personal platform on the matter but the apprenticeship aspect is gone in my opinion and this applies to many types of professions now and the disrespect shown to those that have the experience and knowledge based on time.

MK

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I'm outside looking in, just farther from the window than most.

Too right Brock. Everything has a balance doesn't it.?

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I have a few of comments.

First, I am extremely grateful for all I've learned, and continue to learn, from the generous contributions of those with oodles of great guitars built and/or repaired. I hope I have always expressed my gratitude and respect adequately, as has been my intention, especially when receiving answers to my own questions.

Second, I am also extremely grateful for all I've learned, and continue to learn, from the contributions of those who haven't built or repaired so many guitars, but who have great ideas and insights, as well as real experience - albeit more limited - to draw on also. Again, I hope I have always expressed my gratitude and respect adequately, as has been my intention.

I think it's important to note that very valuable contributions can come from most everyone in the community - not that the opinion of a newb has the "merit" of that of an accomplished luthier, but that those of widely different levels of experience have things of value to share, and this should not be discouraged. I'm a bit concerned, Brock, that your comments may discourage many from speaking up, and this could be a great loss to the community (I assume that's not your intention). As we read the forum, we sometimes have to separate some chaff from the kernels. No big deal, IMO.

As the current "golden age" of lutherie was first growing, nobody really had much experience or knowledge. "The blind leading the blind", as it were, got us to where we are today. "Blind", in this case, doesn't mean stupid or lazy or incapable or anything of that nature. The intelligence, creativity, inquisitiveness, perseverance, etc, of those pioneers - and their willingness to share and learn from each other - led to the development of a vast body of knowledge and ideas which continues to grow today. I see these same qualities in many of today's novices and intermediate luthiers, exemplified by many fine folks here, and I think we can gain much from these folks, in addition to what we can gain from the most accomplished luthiers among us.

As a novice myself (I will probably always consider myself a novice, but, in any case, I have not yet built or repaired oodles of guitars), I try to address questions I see here when I feel I have something valuable to offer. I don't intend to put my opinion up against that of someone who's far more accomplished than myself, and I hope I don't come off as doing that, but I still feel that, in many cases, I have some bit of valuable experience or insight or a worthwhile idea to share. I also feel that this is one way for me to give back to the community; I wouldn't want to be always asking questions and not doing what I can to help answer others'. (I'm not saying any of this out of self-defense or self-justification - I don't feel the need to do that - I am simply using myself as an example, to possibly offer some insight into the motivations of some of the people at a similar experience level to myself.)

It would be great to have greater numbers of seriously accomplished luthiers here, but I can understand many reasons why we have relatively few, and I don't think most of those reasons reflect any fault of the forum. In any case, I still think the forum is great, and I give my thanks, once again, to all who contribute. A special thanks to the folks who've done oodles and have tons of solid experience to draw on, for sharing with the rest of us! Whatever your reasons are, it sure is a great blessing!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Made a novice laugh!

Interesting perspectives being discussed... So why do these experienced pros bother? My guess is that they love it, as the quote from CM Payne suggests. Its about sharing knowledge and what can be a more wonderful thing than that? Certainly a great legacy fro the next generation of builders.

I would suspect that some things do remain hidden as well, 'trade secrets' that have a commercial value will be closely guarded by some and you cant blame them afterall there is huge competition especially for the smaller bespoke builder, so when I see names on here that I recognise as established builders happy to share what in some cases is a unique selling pint for their craftsmanship, their altruism is remarkable and appreciated by the amateurs like me no end!

In all walks of life there will always be the odd anomaly, but what makes any community is the willingness to share and pass on knowledge. Its what makes the guitar building one so special and attracts so many new folk to giving it a go. I am sure there is also a bit of ego involved - and why not, because we should be proud of what we have crafted and there is nothing wrong in sharing that in pride especially if it also helps others improve their own results.

Finally, a great example of how the established are willing to help the novice is in Gerald Sheppard - I stared my first build over here in the UK, before i knew about this forum. I had picked up some Macassar for B+S and started looking for info on it - discovered GS's web site and saw some og his beutiful creations including some in Macassar... sent him a qyuick email, about me satrting a first and did he have any tips about the wood and how to work and glue etc.... I got a wonderful detailed reply with some top tips that really helped - there was NO commercial benefit to him in doing this, no public PR exercise, merely helping out a novice starter in another country , just because he could and was willing to share knowledge.... would i have gotten the same response from a large scale commercial out fit? not likely, but is Gerald's type of response that is what makes this whole thing worthwhile. Some very skilled craftsman who are very decent human beings... long may it continue.

Just so I am clear.

I am not saying that people with less experience have nothing to offer. What I am specifically referring to is I have watched admonishments, debates, and heckling of builders at the top of the craft come from folks who have virtually no experience. While these people don't represent the views of the majority of the members they are quite effective at driving away builders with tons of experience.

Let's not confuse this with participation from the NewB's. We welcome all comers and encourage participation from all. My only point was that perhaps posters should remember this when trying to go toe to toe with someone with 40 years experience and a few thousand guitars under their belt. Their ideas may not be right for you, but that doesn't mean they don't work or have merit.

I think it is important that if we want participation from the most recognized talent that we extend them the kindness of the benefit of the doubt and presume that they know some things that the younger builders do not.

As a community I think we need to try and curb that type of behavior and make participation from the more established builders feel welcomed and valued.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

If I may comment (as a newb);-), I have not seen that much 'toe to toe debate between Newbs or the lesser experienced builders and those with vastly greater knowledge on here, it seems for teh most part a very open, friendly and respectful community. Thats not to say Newbs should not question pick and disect the thoughts and comments of teh experienced pros and amateurs alike where appropriate and with respect that has been earned through their knowdge and their willingness to share it. There are countles tip questions where the seasoned can use the benefit of experience to help those at teh satrt of tehir journey.... but maybe sometimes .... some forget that there are also areas where the very nature of building mysteries mean their are no 'right' answers and merely different and often opposing opinions. In these areas, even the pros disagree amongst themselves, and that why we have such a wonderful diversity of instruments produced, with builders challenging preconceptions and teh 'established' beliefs as they seek to find new solutions to the same age old problems. This is perhaps wher some newbs can add great value, precisely because they maybe dont have that history or legacy dictating their direction or opinion? OK so the lack of experience may mean that they ahve a lower 'hit' rate, but that learning process is part of what makes instrument making so enjoyable, as we often learn as much from our mistakes as we do from our successes?

Certainly I dont think i have seen any major disrespect or 'attitude' towards the pros, if anything its often quite sycophantic (in a nice way) same aas meeting your sporting or other role model heroes. Niether has there been any patronizing responses or much arrogance from the pros, although sometimes the nature of web based posting MAY be misconstrued and perhaps thats the area wher there may be a need for more care?

there is nothing wrong with questions. Questions are good.

But I am talking about somehting else. I agree that for the most part people are kind and respectful of each other at all levels. But that isn't always the case and this is one of those situations where a few bad apples (or people with a bug up their butt at that moment in time) ruin the barrel. Regretably, it has happened.

asking a question such as "I don't understand, wouldn't that method cause ______ to happen? How do you avoid that, or is it even an issue?" is not the same as
telling someone their idea is dumb, won't work, isn't necessary, isn't cost efficient, isn't labor efficient, won't be accepted in the market place, etc. etc. etc.

I know it sounds absurd, but these things have happened. Folks with 1 guitar to their name telling very well established builders who have built hundereds or thousands of instruments that their idea "won't work"

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Certainly I would never condone such disrespect and I have to admit I have not seen too much of it on the thraeds that interest me most at this stime - namely looking at and admiring the wonderful creations produced by both established craftsman and talented newbies alike. I can understand how the situation you describe above would cause anger and resentment, but I would suggest its the exception rather than a cultural shift on the site - I would like to think so anyway. The only thing I would add is that it would be a shame if these few bad apples discouraged more experienced pros, but I woyuld ask them to remember that it is a few bad apples and not teh attitude of the overwhelming majority of inexperienced builders who welcome, respect and admire the time and dedication the pros bring in altruisticall and selflessly helping out the new.

Finally though i would say again often it can in part be the 'enflaming' nature of the web based word rather than a pure attempt at disresopect and that IS something I have sen in both directions - no intent, just the way and style some folks write I guess.

The information and camaraderie here at OLF is invaluable to me. It's like a second home. The information gleaned from experiened builders is the difference between an average outcome and an excellent outcome (my opinion only), for my first build, and, hopefully, for those going forward. I do, however, know what Brock is talking about. I have seen "master" builders rebuffed, by a new builder, when making a point, and then, when they get short with the new builder, someone get's his feelings hurt. The next time that person asks a question, the response may be shorter, like, "Go test it yourself!", which, in truth, is a pretty good response, but tends not to be the answer being requested, and it makes someone mad. Then you get a back and forth that is useless. Those of us who are new at this, should not be arguing our methods with folks who know better. We should be listening and learning, and, whether we use what we learn, is up to us. If we do, life may be easier. If we don't, eventually, we'll learn through our mistakes, or failures. Some of us learn better that way. It's just a longer route. I have tried some stuff I should not have, and I have the useless necks, and the lost time to prove it.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

The most interesting though has to when a question is asked and you get different responses from different experienced pros or amateurs... rather than find this confusing, I think its what makes it most interesting as we learn about alternative solutions methods tried and sometimes failed etc. Naturally the best way to learn IS to try things yourself, record and refine, but the addictive nature of this craft is such that patience is often difficult to maintain -

Although i have not really experienced the concerns expressed above, surely the key to any to this courtesy and MUTUAL respect? We can sure express opinion to debate the merits of solutions to try and understand the thought process behind particular outcomes and procedures in a couteous and balanced way, without it being disrespectful. But we maybe should remember taht if the ethos of the site is one of open membeership, should certain debates and discussion be restricted to the 'experienced' ? I dont believe so and whilst i can understand why some pros would perhaps find certain newbie views on their solutions unreasonable, what happens wen that view comes from another pro? I am just wondering whether its just newbie inexperience that is causing this feeling, or if maybe its having the experienced solution exposed to dissection by other pros that might also be an issue?

You hurt me David. You know I can't handle the truth.

On a more serious note, I'd just like to add my appreciation for the contributions of the forum's experienced members. You all make this an incredibly valuable place to hang out. I've learned a great deal from all of you! I've also noticed that there are some younger builders who've started making excellent contributions. In my mind, they're joining the ranks of David Collins, Alan, etc.

That said, I do feel the need to say that a certain aspect of this thread irritates me: the expressions of regret that some builders have left the forum. It bothers me for two reasons. One, I think it undervalues the contributions of the members still contributing to this forum. I've combed through a ridiculous amount of this site's archives and there are some great contributions from people who have left the forum. However, most of the great contributions in the archives came from folks who are still contributing. Second, some of the postings by the person or persons who've left was appallingly rude. I'm being deliberately vague here, trying to stay out of trouble.

As Frank says above, we often learn the most from debate and disagreement. People have a choice whether to display mutual respect, newbs and vets alike. If they're unwilling to do that, I don't see their loss as tragic.

And that gets me back to my original point. The vets posting here make this a great site. And the people running it have done an excellent job. Having browsed internet forums in general and the available luthier forums, I'd say this is a fanatistic resource.

That leaves only one conclusion: the OLF is informative, inclusive and anyone who doesn't think so can go f**k themself...kidding..kidding!

this is getting to be a very interesting and philosophical thread. I think the positives far out weight the negatives of this forum. To be 100% honest there are some that post for ego. Some to teach and some to show others what they know.
I still think we have a great forum and the bad apples are by far in the minority. It doesn't take long to figure that out. I remember when this forum was in its infancy and the root supporters watched this forum grow. I am proud to be part of this forum and have supported it a long time and plan to continue.
Knowledge shared is education . I agree that if you think you have a better way , try it. One never knows where the next big idea will come from. Respect each other , and we can all learn from one another.
John Hall

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

To be clear, when I said


I wasn't talking about matters of opinion. I was talking about the experienced luthier who is simply wrong about something.

I'll give an example, it's from another forum but it can happen anywhere.

A while back I was trying to learn about old Martins and T-bars. A very helpful chap and a well respected builder provided lots of information about T-bars but he also said that it had to be a certain kind of steel to have a certain property. In this case, another very experienced luthier joined the thread and pointed out that the type of steel didn't effect the properity that the first luthier was talking about. This was surprising and non-intutative to me so I checked out what the second luthier said and sure enough, he was correct. It wasn't an opinion, it was a fact, a well studied, well researched fact that had been know for over 100 years. No attempt to convice the first lutherier of this fact would work and many pointers explaining the theory didn't work either. Now this was a fairly civil thread because both luthiers knew and respected each other, but it could have been a college student who joined the thread who had just taken a materials science course. He may have zero experience in guitar building, but he just learned about steel. Why shouldn't he be heard? It's a simple matter to ask why he thinks that and evaluate the idea on it's merits.

Usually discussions aren't as back and white as this but there are a surprising number of them that are.



I wasn't refering to short answers like that. The kind of short answers I was talking about are simply rude withot any other purpose. It's acting out bad behavior on the part of the person posting them and they should be treated as such. Instead of a rude comment I'd suggest: I guess we just disagree. Or maybe something even stronger like, I disagree with you and I've said all I have to say about the subject.

As for trade secrets. Again, no need to be rude. A simple, "that's all I feel I can say about it," will work.

If someone finds these kinds of answers short and rude, and they may, then someone else can explain what they mean.



I read my share of threads in forums and I really don't see much of what I would call inappropriate behavior on the part of anyone other than experienced luthiers, and to be very clear, only a very small minority of experienced luthiers behave poorly on what seems to be a pretty consistant basis.

I've probably said more that I should, I'm not that much of a regular here but the suggestion that some people get "thicker skin" seems like a bad idea to me. I'm hoping for a world with sensative people as well as sensitive guitars.

'Secrets'

I don't think there are any in this trade. I use 'secret' in the sense of some piece of knowledge that would not be logically derivable by somebody with a reasonable amount of experience. As in:"Who'da thunk that wiping the top down with bojanglewood extract would increase the sustain of the high G#?"

There is a lot of snake oil floating around, and some pretty effective salesmen of same. My general counsel there is that anything that's touted as improving every guitar is probably hype.

Obviously, there's lots of stuff you don't know yet, but you'll get there if you make enough guitars. There's plenty more for all of us to learn.

'Spoon feeding'

Frank Ford said something about this in an article: just because somebody tells you how to do something doesn't mean you know how to do it. Reading about delivering a baby was not the same thing as standing there watching my wife in labor while waiting for the doctor to arrive. There is no substitute for tool chops, and that includes knowing how to sharpen them and set them up. I don't care if you plan to do everything but the final sanding with a CNC router and jigs; you still have to know how to set things up.

This goes for a lot of other aspects of this, too. A friend of mine, after a stint as an instructor at MIT, said that you can only teach about 1/3 of what you know. The spoon is just too short for me, or anybody else, to be able to tell you everything.

In the end Mario's rejoinder to 'just make it' is the only way you're really going to learn. I think most people here understand that, and I, in turn, can understand the desire to pick up as much 'book' knowledge as possible before you make the cut. But you won't really _know_ until you make the cut. Several times.

Hey Ok Im a general newbie in the luthierie world - but If I understand your concern ToddStock, then perhaps its more of a situation where there is a place for the "grownups" to talk... a section thats reserved for experienced builders to converse -
this way you could have the option to help out a dumbarse like me or just converse with your fellow luthiers of high esteem?
Im thankful to people here who have taken the time to help me out... Your one of them Todd!
Cheers
Charlie
PS what MLP said in his initial thread is pure poetry!

We all find a way to do things that works for us.
We even get in a rut by not changing that way because of fear of failure.
This forum lets all of us share how,why & what we're doing to make guitars as best we can .

New makers & experienced makers all learn here.


Mike

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Mike Collins

(not to hijack the thread so I'll be brief...) I sure am glad the experienced ones come on here to share with us neophytes. You deserve a big

The two pros that left are still easily accessible on other forums. For a pittance you can access Sylvan's ever increasing collection of lutherie "stuff that works". We still have highly experienced builders and repair persons that post here. We have a bunch of folks with 30-50 under their belt that can give good basic advice to beginners. Life is good eh?
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Look at the list of people that are still here, Howard Klepper, on any measure one of the finest half dozen or so guitar makers on the planet, and Kevin Gallagher, probably made more guitars than 90% of the forum added together for instance. Both of these gentlemen (and I use the word purposely) patiently answer the questions of the rest of us. Yes I do miss Mario, not to have his no nonsense, but still polite, posts is a great loss to the forum. There are some I don't miss, those whose enormous building skills were not matched by there social skills, who seemed to be rude and obnoxious for the sake of it. No good riddance to them I say.

And then of course there is me, what a boon to the forum I am! I may not be the best luthier in the world, but I'm certainly in the top one!
(Appologies to Brian Clough, the Brits will understand)

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

What Todd Rose said.

I too take what I can an am truly grateful to those who share at every level. I too feel compelled to give what little I can in effort to pay my way. However the bottom line is that I have never met a member who joined this or any other guitar orientated forum to be belittled, abused or used as the pump arm to inflate some ones ego. As a matter of course, in the first instance respect must be afforded to all, quite simply nothing else should be acceptable. However respect can only be maintained with respectfulness applied in return, should you fail in this, you are likely to get what you deserve no matter how many guitars you have built, and no matter how important you may think you have become and that is exactly the way it should be.

I do not mind a short and 'to the point' answer, for this Mario remains king and is sadly missed from the OLF. I do not mind a detailed and complete answer, for this Allen Carruth is king and I am very glad he remains with us. But I cannot stand to see folks belittled for simply having tried to help another with advice which did not happen to align with the opinions of one who considers himself a 'pro'. Sure Mario could be abrasive, but he would never belittle an enquiring mind or helpful spirit, he would simply make a solid correction where necessary with the facts and I never once saw him try to pump his own ego at the expense of another. As Colin has mentioned, Allen Carruth is an outright gent and I cannot imagine him ever upsetting anyone intentionally, but like Colin, I also feel that it is good to see the back end of others who IMHO had only managed to chase away more than they ever bought to this forum.

Cheers

Kim

In my experience the person who is the most open to learning, is a person who is the most willing to teach. It is a quality that is innate, and they can't help themselves!

So true.

I may be new to guitar building but I design and build stuff for a living so I think I understand where most of you are coming from. I am pretty opinionated about what I know works for me so I can produce an above average product.

It really helps to have a thick skin.

There is more than one way to do most jobs. If it works for you, rock on. If your final product is really good then I, for one, will pay close attention to what you have to say. That doesn't mean I will necessarily do it that way.

I really appreciate you guys.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I looked at it this way. The higher the tide gets the more we can all swim together. In other words, the more information and participation out there, we all stand to benefit.
Seeing something done once is the same as hearing/reading about it 100 times.
Doing it once is the same as seeing it done 100 times.
All the information available here allows one to go and do and this brings a lot of joy and satisfaction (and sometimes frustration) to a lot of people no matter what level you are at.
Happy Building everyone!