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Does hot hide glue go bad if it freezes?

No...as long as you have little or no head space where freezer burn can occur. I freeze mine in full plastic bottles which are double wrapped in polyethylene bags and care taken to remove all air. So far, I have been able to confirm 9 months storage without any change in performance.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

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Frozen peas have more vitamins than fresh, and butcher in spitalfieald meat market when a friend worked there kept stuff for upto 4 years in deep freeze though i admit its not your average home setup

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Simple...I tested it on actual glue joints for 9 consecutive months until I ran out of glue! I probably could have gone longer.

The key IMO is protecting it from freezer burn...and that's also why meat and other foods freeze better when vacuum packed!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Tony you are making HHG sound complicated to use.....

I don't freeze mine although I most certainly agree that one can. I just try to only mix up no more then 6 weeks worth and then keep it in the fridge when not in use.

On the contrary? Well then I have to disagree since I see where Tony is advocating treating HHG like food but I also see the initial point that Tony made where he clearly asks JJ how he would know. JJ replied that he has tested his beliefs and that is how he knows. Works for me...

Regarding this notion of treating HHG as one would treat food which I do not necessarily disagree with to some extent I would offer this: How many times do you reheat your food and still consider it safe to eat? I reheat HHG 6 - 10 times storing it in the fridge in between but I would never reheat anything that I would consider safe to eat that many times.....

Todd for a couple of years now you have been dogging me when I post... I have contacted you in the past and asked you if there was any way that we could work things out so as to provide a better experience for all, including you and I. You either don't respond to me or side step the issue indicating that there is not a problem...

Your hostility toward me shows and others frequently PM me and ask what your beef with me is. My own enjoyment of the OLF has diminished because of your need to discredit me at every opportunity. I post a toot, you add info indicating that I missed things, I ask you to add your info to the toot so everyone could benefit and you refuse saying that my toot should stand for what it is.... Now that's just BS and I am sick of it.

So my suggestion to you is to leave me alone going forward and I will be more than happy to continue to ignore you as well.

Hide glue freezes fine. It even freezes fine if there's some air space in the container. In fact, short of actually letting it sit out and rot (and a lot of times it'll dry out before it rots if left in an open container!) there isn't a whole lot you can do to screw it up. Some of the old guys just let it dry out in the pot for storage and re-soaked it when they needed it again.

My current bottle was frozen over a year and a half, and it's working fine. It still smells right, and the working properties are what I'd expect them to be. The wood still breaks first. So I've got nine more months on JJ's record. To say that it doesn't work, when there's empirical proof that it does, is crying wolf.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

That's what I like to hear. When I see pictures of the old glue pot, with glue all over the outside, and a brush sitting in it. I always wondered how careful those guys were. My guess is they didn't clean that pot every day, or ever. Turn it off at the end of the day, pour in a little water the next day an turn it back on - good all day.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Todd I made no choice to cast myself in any role so you can take your manipulative sentence constructs worded not unlike the old "have you quit beating your wife yet" and save them up for someone who cares what you think.

This is the second time in several days that you have belittled another OLF member and someone called you on it.

All I ask, no, let me rephrase that - all I require is that going forward you simply leave me alone and do not address me, belittle me, discredit me, or dog my posts. This is the same level of decency that any OLF member is entitled to. In return I will of course afford you the same consideration.

Nobody has been "cast as a victim" here Todd. Its an on going trend that you have with Hesh's posts. I see it - and am sure many others do as well.
I have been emailed and PM'd by many of our members about this and to be honest have been unsure how to address it with you.

I guess I'm just trying to say please be nice. To all.

Now, back on topic.

I have had similar problems with frozen foods in my garage freezer during the winter months. It was as if my freezer didn't want to get cold enough and stay cold when it was cold in the garage. A friend at work told me about a garage kit for the fridge that will help this. Im not sure this had anything to do with your HHG issue, but it never hurts to mention.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Thanks Todd,
It would be nice if every one took that approach. If we were all "nice" to one another there would be less misunderstandings and more productive discussions.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

WOW...just logged on to see to my amazement how controversial this has become...far more so than it's worth.

I've used the stuff successfully for 6 years both frozen as well as refrigerated only. I tested this years ago because I could... and also so that I would be able to inform others with more trivial data somewhere down the road. I haven't frozen the stuff in years and use it up much more quickly now. But having tested it, I feel justified in reserving my right to be silly anytime I feel so inclined...and with Bob's supplemental data, it appears that I can be silly for at least 18 months now. Thanks, Bob! It's hard to believe that anyone's twice as silly as me!

BTW...I just got 50 lbs of 192 High Clarity delivered today so it's time for the repackaging and redistribution operation to begin...talk about silly!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

You make me smile JJ.

Anyway, I just want to ask you a couple questions:

Do you have to unthaw the frozen hide glue before putting it in the pot?

I always heat the water to temp first then put the glue in. Is this how you do it? or let the glue heat up as the water heats up?

I've always wanted to try freezing glue for ready use because when I mix up a batch I usually let it sit in the refrigerator overnight before using. I know that sounds silly but I think it would save time in the long run.

Holler at me when you're ready for payment.

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Hutch...It ain't rocket science. If you freeze or fridge it in a poly bottle, it can go right in water at or below 140*F. I make sure it's nice and fluid and at temp for 10 minutes before using. Some would say that you must measure temp of the HHG itself but IMO it's not necessary and I consider that silly! But it's guys like you who defend our right to be silly and I am forever grateful for your service. <BSEG>

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

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I gotta agree with Bob here: I think it's common sense to use your bottle of glue until it's empty. I mix my glue in a small squeeze bottle (or sometimes two if I don't eyeball it right) as necessary. The small opening (my bottles use syringe tips) actually tend to keep the moisture content much more constant than when I was using an open jar. The jar could go from thin to thick in an hour or so easily.

when I'm done with my bottle, I fish it out of the pot water and throw the cap back on it. Because it's sitting at 140o, it's essentially sterile when you pull it out. I haven't glued anything with HHG in about two months (gotta love the day job) and the bottles sitting in my fridge don't look any different from the day I put them in there. If when I re-heat them they don't get that rubbery effect, I'll be happy to use it. If I were to pitch my glue every time it was more than two weeks old, I'd be going through a pound of crystals a year building only one to two instruments a year!

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Couple of hide glue questions

1. What is the clamp time and time before stressing a joint
2. Which should I measure the temperature of the glue or the water eg in my bottle warmer to keep the glue at around but not above 140f the water temp needs to be 155f if the water is at 140f the glue is around 126f

And thanks for the toot hesh like the marbles idea to keep the heat more constant.

Thanks Guys

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

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Spirited discussions on controversial topics like this are great. Much better than wading through 40 posts on how great some guitar looks. You actually learn something. State your opinion, back it up with whatever data you've got and get ready to argue! It's good to have your opinions challenged.
Me? I usually build two at time so I mix enough to do those two and stick it in the fridge between sessions. Usually 5 or 6 reheats over several weeks. 192 strength but that might change. No data, just makes the most sense based on what I have read.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

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I would say definitely measure the glue itself if you can, because the difference between water and glue can vary a lot depending on both setup and time. In my case i've found differences from 3 to 10 degrees Celsius depending on how much glue I have in the bottle, and water temp, so it can get complicated.

I haven't used it in a guitar yet though, still testing as I have had some test joints pull apart easily especially spruce+spruce.
What I really like is how easy is to clean the squeeze out, as opposed to the fish glue I currently use- it makes a terrible mess.
I use a tiny space in a bookshelf as brace gobar deck and I don't have access, later it is a nightmare to scrape and sand out the squeezeout :<

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Build log

Glue temp vs. Water temp...

Can someone please explain why this is an issue? With the small amounts we use in a waterbath, it doesn't represent such a significant heat sink to not achieve equilibrium with the water temperature in a reasonable period of time. I've actually measured this with my rig. If I drop a 2 oz. poly bottle of gelled HHG into 20 oz of water and let the water come up to temperature, once the glue has become liquefied, it is a matter of 10 minutes before it reaches the same temp as the water. I'm on my 4th pound of HHG and I have never had any problems monitoring the glue readiness by monitoring the waterbath temperature. In fact, after using this stuff for a long time, I can actually tell by its physical appearance when it's ready to use. As long as it doesn't gel before the mating surfaces are clamped, you're good to go.

And the only reason I mention this is that some are advocating heating their water baths to over 150*F so that the glue temp achieves 140*. Well it may help get it to 140* faster, but the danger of leaving it at that temp for an extended period of time will cause the glue to break down its molecular structure. I'd want to prevent that.

Pardon me for saying this, but sometimes we make using HHG far more complicated than it deserves and then wonder why some folks shy away from using it.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

What is the advantage of ordering hide glue flakes from this or that company?
As opposed to, say, the widely available Behlen hide glue (which I've been using, no complaint so far). I read somewhere that there's only one company in the US manufacturing the stuff.
If this has been already discussed forgive me, I most probably missed it.

BTW I do small batches, sometimes freeze the glue for a few weeks, but most often put it in the fridge at the end of the day. I keep adding to the pot in the water-bath, so I do not know how many times it gets re-heated. Less than a dozen. No problem so far, it is a tough glue.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/