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Todd Rose
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:14 am 
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Like a thorn in your side, I just won't go away...

Another question: have you guys had any issues with using stearate-coated sand papers (at any point in the building or finishing process) - contamination of the surface from the stearate resulting in finish adhesion problems?

While on that subject, have you found the waterborne finishes to be more or less sensitive, in general, to surface contamination and adhesion problems, than nitro or other finishes?

Thanks!

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Andy Birko
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:49 am 
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Todd Rose wrote:
Like a thorn in your side, I just won't go away...

Another question: have you guys had any issues with using stearate-coated sand papers (at any point in the building or finishing process) - contamination of the surface from the stearate resulting in finish adhesion problems?

While on that subject, have you found the waterborne finishes to be more or less sensitive, in general, to surface contamination and adhesion problems, than nitro or other finishes?

Thanks!


I've been using the Norton 3X and 3M gold stearated papers on Target USL with no problems.

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Terence Kennedy
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:32 am 
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I've never used stearated paper with any waterbase. A friend used it for leveling after pore fill and got a lot of fish eye with USL. After sanding back with non-stearated and
re-shooting all was OK.
TJK

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Ken C
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:23 pm 
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Todd, I had heard all the horror stories about coated papers and water based lacquers. Target, I believe, even warns against their use. But in researching this a few months ago, I found a few people using stearated paper and haven zero problems with Target's finishes. My confidence isn't as high, and I have avoided them for leveling between spraying applications and generally during pre spray prep. I am still spooked I guess and don't want to end up refinishing a guitar. I'll be curious to read what others are doing.

Ken

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:59 pm 
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After Z-poxy, does anyone reccomend another sealer finish (before the EmTech)?
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jordan aceto
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:09 pm 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
After Z-poxy, does anyone reccomend another sealer finish (before the EmTech)?


Shellac seems to be what most people, me included, like to use.

I am also spooked by stories of fisheyes and finish repulsion from stearated sandpapers, so i dont use them anywhere near the finishing process.

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Todd Rose
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:27 pm 
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All right, if you guys are spooked, then I'll be spooked, too.

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meddlingfool
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Foolish question of the day...
What is stereated sandpaper, and how is it different than normal sandpaper?
Thanks
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Rod True
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:05 pm 
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Stearate is something in which the paper manufacturer adds to the paper to help reduce clogging.

There's two thoughts on it.

1st - It's not good to use on water based products as it can release the stearate agent and cause adhesion issues and/or fish eyes in the finish.

2nd - Most manufacturers have controlled the issue and current stearate papers a safe to use with water based products. This is Bob Flexner's view anyway.

That's my understanding anyway.

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Rod True
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:08 pm 
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I like the 3M 216U Fre-cut gold paper for level sanding the finish. It's a non-stearate paper and works great. I get it from the automotive finish supply store. You can get it up to 800 grit. And it's nice because you don't have to work wet.

If I had a buffer, I could go to the buffer right from the 800 grit without any wet sanding.

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Andy Birko
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:34 pm 
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Todd Rose wrote:
All right, if you guys are spooked, then I'll be spooked, too.


No need to be spooked. Two instruments with USL - used stearated papers exclusively. Zero fisheye. I don't think I could ever go back to non stearated papers now.

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jordan aceto
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Andy Birko wrote:
Todd Rose wrote:
All right, if you guys are spooked, then I'll be spooked, too.


No need to be spooked. Two instruments with USL - used stearated papers exclusively. Zero fisheye. I don't think I could ever go back to non stearated papers now.


I have wondered for a while how much of an urban myth the fisheye/stearate thing is... it may be that these newer finishes are less sensitive. In any case, cool, one less thing to worry about.

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:27 pm 
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Crap! How do I know if my paper is sterated and what does "fish eye" look like? A pic would help please...

Also, what kind of shellac over the epoxy? I have several flake bags from stewmac. I think I have blonde in there. Will the EmTech attach to the shellac?

Mike
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Rod True
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:42 pm 
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Most paper which is stearated is noted on the back and you will have paid almost double for them. The majority of paper is non-stearated. And here's a good thread on stearated paper on canadianwoodworking.com

Here's a picture of fisheye. Fisheye happens when the surface is contaminated, usually with silicone.

Image

de-waxed shellac is what you want to use. I use the Zinsser's seal coat. EMTech adhere's well to shellac.

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:16 am 
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Thanks Rod. Glad to know what fish eye looks like and also glad to know I have not seen it before. However, not sure why the call that fish eye.

Mike
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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:23 am 
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Are the shellac flakes from stewmac "de-waxed?"


Mike
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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:06 am 
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I ordered the zinssers seal coat and the emtech 6000.

thanks for the help, Mike
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Rod True
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:34 am 
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Mike O'Melia wrote:
Are the shellac flakes from stewmac "de-waxed?"


Mike


Yes, the stewmac flakes are wax free (according to their website).

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jordan aceto
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:35 am 
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For clarity, it sounds like you guys know what you got, but for anyone who is unclear-

Zinssers SealCoat 100% wax free formula is the one you are looking for. It says Bulls Eye SealCoat and universal sanding sealer on the can.

Zinssers Bulls Eye Shellac traditional finish and sealer is a gloppy mess, not the same thing at all.

The cans look pretty similar, look for the 100% wax free and you should be ok.

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Rod, on my first OM, I did not get the best results with zpoxy. I applied two coats of zinsers as you suggested. I am going to CA fill as you did (Hesh reminded me that zpoxy over shellac, not good.) Before CA, do you flatten the shellac with sand paper?

Mike




Rod True wrote:
Here's my schedule.

Two coats shellac sealer (I use the Zinsser's seal coat, right out of the can)
Two session's med visc CA as the pore filler. Applied with a razor blade, sand back to wood after the first session (1 hour to cure is fine). Apply the second coat of CA, cure, sand back to wood.

Spray two coats of shellac sealer again. Leave 2 days. light scuff sand and remove any obvious irregularities (drips or runs)

Than it's to the EM6000. Thinned 10% by volume with distilled water (actually I warmed the water too 100* for the first coat), 3 coats a day, 1 hour in between. No sanding.

The first couple of coats took a bit of tweaking of the gun (even after trying on scrape, practice boards) and I got some runs. The next day though, they scraped level just fine with a razor blade.

Then I sprayed on another 3 coats, then the same the next day.

Everything I've read on the Target forum says that it's cured out plenty good enough after 100 hours to level and buff. I'm going to give it 2 weeks. Which is miles ahead of nitro lacquer. Which is a good thing.

Remember (if you've not used WB lacquer before) that you still need to use an OSHA approved respirator for spraying. WB might not be as toxic as nitro, BUT you still don't want to inhale any of the fumes or mist when using any WB finish.
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Rod True
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:40 pm 
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No, not the initial seal coat. I just go right on over it with the CA. Get thick CA. Work in small sections with a razor blade. When you're finished you can sand it back to wood or close enough and check the pores. Do another session with the CA, just to be sure.

Once you've done the second coat, sand back to wood or close to it. Then do two more seal coats with shellac. I've had no issues if CA is still on the wood surface as it "seams" that the shellac will burn in to the CA and there will be no noticeable difference between the two.


MAKE SURE YOU HAVE GOOD VENTILATION WHEN USING CA TO PORE FILL. WEAR A RESPIRATOR, FULL FACE IF YOU HAVE ONE. THE FUMES ARE NOT FUN IN THE EYES OR UP YOUR NOSE.

You can use z-poxy to fill, just don't use shellac to seal before, epoxy doesn't adhere well to shellac, but the other way works just fine.

One thing I have noticed is that the EM6000 shrinks back, just like nitro, actually a bit faster I'd say, so if you've missed some pores, you'll know it after two weeks of letting it cure.

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:26 pm 
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OK, did that. Worked fine. Surface lloks very nice. Do you do this to the top wood? Neck?

BTW, what do you do with pores aftter the EmTech has been applied? (I believe your accounting has it at nine coats)
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Rod True
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Top I just give two coats of shellac, lite scuff sand and it's onto the EM6000.

The 9 coats are my initial coats (all very thin) that will mostly all be sanded off to get a perfectly flat surface. Once that's done, I'll spray another 2-3 coats, let that cure a week, lite level then start the buff and polish.

Neck, I use an oil finish. I fill the pores with CA, sand back to wood, ensure pores are filled and then 6 coats of Danish Oil. One per day. Wipe it one, wait an hour wipe off any excess. Once the 6 coats are on, I leave it for 3 weeks, then it should be hard enough to polish. I use OOOO steelwool with paste wax to rub out the finish, then when the wax is starting to get dry on the surface, I shoe shin polish it with a soft cloth. Nice and slick, not sticky at all, and a nice lite sheen to it. Not quite semi-gloss, but not satin either.

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Mike OMelia
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:28 am 
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Rod,

Gotta brand name for that paste wax?

Thanks, your suggestions have been VERY helpful

Mike
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Rod True
 Post subject: Re: EmTech 6000 Lacquer
PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:39 am 
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This is the stuff I like. I got it at Home Depot, but you can get it at many wood finishing supply stores.

Homestead finishing also sells it (google)

Image

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