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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:51 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Location: West Scotland
hi all
has anyone got experience and thoughts on elevated fingerboards / necks on steel strungs.
I have been asked to start designing a S/S for my on instrument making course and have heard good reports of this type of construction on classical and was wondering how it would translate to S/S.
Your thoughts are welcome.
Also are there any examples or “tutorials” in this technique.
regards
Geordie

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Translates pretty much word-for-word.

Bob Benedetto's book has a good description of how to make an elevated fretboard neck.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:13 pm 
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Cocobolo
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thanks Howard
I'll read that.
Geordie

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Mahogany
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First name: Luc
Last Name: Regnier
City: Toronto
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Hi Geordie,

Charles Fox uses a Elevated Neck on his Ergo guitar.
He has some nice pics of it on his website.

Luc


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:43 pm 
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Mahogany
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First name: Luc
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Hi Geordie,

Charles Fox uses a Elevated Neck on his Ergo guitar.
He has some nice pics of it on his website.

Luc


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Location: West Scotland
hi there
thank you all for your answers.
What I really need to do is think before I rattle of something on the keyboard. oops_sign
I’ll try again.
What I was looking for was insight into how the elevated neck concept (Thomas Humphrey etc.) night affect the sound and structure of the steel strung guitar.
Sorry for the badly posed question.
yours
Geordie

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:04 pm 
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Well, again, I think if you want to see a brief discussion on the benefits of the elevated neck for a flat top you should check out Charles Fox's Ego website... Woops! I meant Ergo website.

He claims that the elevated neck give the strings a better angle on the top creating a clearer, louder, sound. Does it? I don't see droves of other luthiers switching over, so I doubt it. Maybe. I've never experimented with it, and being $30,000 short I haven't yet picked up one of Charles Fox's guitars.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:11 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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It's not a new idea of course. Gibson did it on L-00's back in the 30's, Martin used it at various points, and I'm sure there are endless examples dating back to the vihuela, the viola da mano, and throughout the 5+ century history of the guitar (though somehow patents are still regularly granted idunno ).

Key point to remember in questions like this is that "better" doesn't really exist in anything other than a fully subjective manner. There is no definitive "better", only different.

Tonally, as to what those differences are, I don't know. Slight change in direction of forces on the top of course. I'd have to speculate that the difference in feel and playability with the increased top clearance would be more significant in the end than tonal effects, but I can't say for sure. I've not seen many instruments built where the neck angle and fingerboard extension were the only changes from traditional standards. Builders who change things like this often tend to change a few other things as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:49 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I did a bit of testing on this some time ago. The idea behind it is that it works the way a harp does, and harps typically do sound darn nice. The questions are then; what is it that the harp is doing that makes it sound that way, and does angling the neck up on a guitar do the same thing?

Harp strings typically pull upward on the soundboard at an angle between 30 and 45 degress. Thusit seems reasonable that the tension change as the string vibrates could pull directly on the soundboard, and cause it to move up and down, producing sound. To test this I use a 'wire pull' * to pluck a harp string exactly in the center of it's vibrating length. In theory this would produce only odd-numbered partials in the transverse force signal, and even-numbered ones in the tension change signal. I recorded the sound of the pluck on my computer and used an FFT program to look at the overtone structure. I saw both odd- and even-order partials, and it was interesting that the odd-order partials decayed at a different rate from the even-order ones. This suggests that they are coupled somewhat differently to the soundboard. I'll note that classical harpists learn to pluck the strings in the center, which maximises the tension change signal and minimises a high frequency sound that also acts through the tension vector.

The Humphrey 'Millenium' model guitar uses a five degree upward angle on between the strings and the soundboard. This is pretty small, compared with what you see on a harp, and one would expect the tension change signal to be correspondingly weaker. I took advantage of the detatchable neck on my 'test mule' guitar to see if that was the case. I cranked the neck up until the strings were at five degrees to the top, and tried the same sort of 'wire pull' pluck in the center of the string. In this case, there was not very much energy in the even-order partials, suggesting that the tension change signal was not strongly coupled to the top, and didn't produce much sound, as one would expect.

I'll note that archtop guitars, with the necks back-angled at 3-5 degrees, would be expected to work about the same way, and, again, when I tried the experiment there was not a lot of even-order partial in the tone.

The 5-degree upward angle of the strings on the Millenium model does seem to put some stress on the top, though. Humphrey used a couple of different top bracing schemes to fight this, I believe, mostly involving cross bracing in front of the bridge to keep the top from dishing too much. When I saw Sharon Isbin playing one I noted quite a bit of dishing for an inch or so in front of the bridge, and was surprised to find out after the performance that the guitar was only three months old at the time. He had gone to a sort of 'lattice' brace system, and the top plate itself was very thin. I can't speak to the probable longevity of these tops: I'd have worried if it were one of mine, but he had been building them that way for years, and seemed to have a handle on the thing. The other major concern I'd have would be for trhe peeling stress along the back edge of the bridge, but, again, it may not be the problem I'd expect it to be.

There is another way to get more of the tension change signal into a guitar top; raise the height of the strings off the top with a taller saddle. This is not as effective as what a harp does, since the bridge-rocking mode of vibration causes part of the to to move upward while another part moves down, giving some 'phase cancellation'. Obviously you do need to think about the torque on the top if you do this, and the stress on the back edge of the bridge, too, so it may not be much of an advantage.

I have to make a point here: we can often hear things that are difficult to measure. In particular, even a small enhancement of a normally weak or absent partial can alter the timbre of a note quite noticably. My test mule is impossible to play with the neck up at a five degree angle, so I could not do playing tests. This is another of the long list of things I'd like to get around to doing a better job on at some point.

* Loop a length of fine magnet wire behind the string and pull until it breaks. The force is always the same, and you can 'pluck' at a known point and in a known direction. Neat.


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