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Howard....Man, this is a sick world...Sorry to hear it..I don't know who is worse...The thief who robbed your guitars or the Insurance company who took your money and wouldn't pay-up...Larry

I'd be willing to bet that they were sold within hours of getting them off the truck, long before anyone knew the checks were fraudulent. I posted over in the UMGF about the unlikeliness of being able to get them back even if they are found (since they are not legally "stolen property", but that you are victim of check fraud rather than theft). I'm sure the police are keeping busy enough with other things, and probably don't want to deal with this either.

Still, I have this crazy idea. High value check fraud, apparently from someone skilled in making them. Two fine artisans making, beautiful musical instruments. Doesn't this sound like the kind of story local news stations would just jump all over to report on?

It seems you and Hill could easily put this together in to a well phrased story that a prominent local news station would love to be able to step in as the problem solver or hero. Wherever these guitars are, people generally tend to play them around other people, so somebody is likely seeing them whether they know they are hot or not.

Arts, instruments, fine craftsmen, well orchestrated serial fraud - it's all wrapped up for a local news program. I'm dead serious about this. Call the papers and TV stations. I know it won't make headlines, but if it gets on the air at all, the instruments are recognizable enough that news can spread. I don't think it's unreasonable to think somebody that's seen them could hear about it. I don't know if you could get actually get them back or catch the bad guy in the end, but it's worth pitching to the media I think.

News stations love the opportunity to play the hero. If nothing else, maybe you'd at least get an interview and some free publicity and showing of your wares through it.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David,
That is a great idea. I got just the guy who hunts down these scumbags. Go to http://www.khow.com/pages/TroubleshooterTomMartino.html. Tom Martino is a great guy who has a team of private detectives and a staff who look into these kinds of stories. Not sure he would take it, but you never know! Howard, I feel for you man! Go get 'em.

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

Howard,

So sorry to hear of the bad news.

If there's any good that I can make from what I'm hearing so far, it's that this guy is stupid enough to do this more than once, which means he's stupid enough to get caught. Let's just hope he does.

Good luck Howard. We're all rooting for you.

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

So sorry to hear this, Howard.

What a low life scum bucket!

Spreading the word wide enough should make it very difficult to sell the instruments to any reputable collectors or dealers. I'll post it on the Luthier Community forum, and it should probably get onto the AGF as well.

I'd recommend adding a page to your website, "Stolen Instruments", and list these with photos and serial numbers. The thief is going to try to get big money for these, and hopefully any player/potential buyer who knows what it means to own a Klepper and is offered one will open your web site and see them. I would do this immediately, in case he's going to do a quick sale and turn them over as fast as he can. Add something like, "reward for the arrest and conviction of the thief", which may get someone to spill the beans that normally would not.

I hope he is caught, and that you get them back. He is probably reading this forum, so be careful what strategies (beyond the obvious) that you reveal publicly.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Wow, that is sick!

Sure sorry you have to deal with this.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

I think that is great advice Dennis. I know if I had someone selling a guitar and I were a potential buyer, I would look up the builder on the internet and read up on them (of course who doesn't already know of Howard?). But seriously....I could see someone looking up Howard's site either pre-sale or post sale to see what they've got. It definitely couldn't hurt right?

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Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

So so sorry Howard !! the newspaper thing is a real good idea. It must be hard to use those guitars ones its been in the paper etc.

Lars

Man, sorry to hear about that. Sad, sad world.

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http://www.casperguitar.com

Man, what an awful thing to happen to you Howard!
I sure hope you get them back somehow. And they catch this
person and put him away!

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe BofA owes you the money since one of their own OKd the checks. Am I reading this wrong?

You should be OK financially, but that SOB needs to be caught. Been watching ebay? Surely that person is not THAT stupid?

As far as COD, never, ever, do that is my take away for this.

Good luck Howard.

Mike

Dude that sucks.. I am sorry to hear about that.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Sorry to hear about the fraud Howard. Well, sorry doesn't really cut it.

I hope that BofA is motivated to catch someone forging their cashier's checks. It's only one small step until the criminal gets an accurate account number and BoA is up a creek.

On a separate note, I'm pissed off that this is happening in Southern California. Anyone with contacts in Socal or California in general, please spread word of this scheme. Every guitar shop and luthier should be made aware of this. And who knows? Mention of the guitars or the criminals may pop up.

Howard sorry to hear of this. Having worked in this area of law enforcement many years, it sucks. I hate thiefs. Yes it will probably fall under fraud statues, but still theft as most time have to have a theft to apply. Just like burglary is a different law, most of the time invoves theft as does robbery. They are just thiefs under differing elemnents of a crime.

One important thing. This will fall into if it hasn't already Federal crimes and investigation. The reason for that is becuase of fraud to bank facilities, postal crimes, interstate (more than likely) commerece of a crime, forgery of banking insturments etc. Once caught these folks (and would bet 10 of Moll's guitars) more than one or even two folks involved. This can also fall into organized crimes, as unless it has changed took 5 or more persons engaging in a criminal activitie to fall in this. I bet more than 5 folks involved in differing ways, but coordinated. All this to say when detective calls you, ask if Feds are involved or contact local FBI. Although several agency's have jurisdiction, FBI will normally take lead (unless fighting with DEA as usual in drug cases) I know this from experience and working in organized crime task forces around the U.S. over years. I also did fraud in private business over the years, and worked with agency's.

There is hope both you and Kenny will get guitars back. I say this as working these things (I bought stolen items from the bad guys) and many times when bust one jerk, got the other scumbags also, as there is no honor among thiefs and they will turn on a dime to get a deal. When they get this guy particularly, plea will also involve where did he dispose of the item (guitars in this case) Many times locals will fare better than the Fed's as they have more resources in the community IE: snitches and other concerned than do feds. Most of time and know harping here, FBI takes the credit with "assistance" with locals. Although they had no clue until locals told them about stuff. This is reason love hate relationship not seen by public exsist with local and fed authorities. I know, I have been on both ends as a local and DEA. I would know where to start and how to go about things as do the authorites. Don't do this on own or go places if not know how to work folks and situations. If get information, pass it on. Most times these guys are not dangerous, but can be. Cops know how and have resources for that. Might get someone good who handles these things in private sector to assist, but that can be expensive, but most really good private folks are former and really really good ones retired law enforcement with knowledge how to do things. That said, many are idiots with no resources and took the coorespondense/on line course of investigation. They do mostly divorce and bad at that work.

One question. Did you and Kenny send guitars to same location? Where was that and what area? How contacted? When and how far apart? How did they contact you guys iniitially? Silk is probably victim id theft, but what is his back ground. I don't understand how he used this guys address for delivery, if not there. Did he use same address for delivery for both of you? Guess more than one question, and many more that will lead to this jerk waters demise.



If can be of assistance let me know. I hate bad guys and particularly thiefs of all stripes. I was also Marine Force Recon and Scout Sniper, but wouldn't adivcate that (just my own thought, but I know wrong)

Yeah, this sucks big time. It was bad enough to read about this the first time, almost exactly the same scenario. But twice?

Delcamp: Classical Guitar Forum for all things classical guitar. Good forum.
http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/index.php

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I saw an ad on craigslist - listing a Kenny Hill Sig BRW.... It didnt list the serial, which made me suspicious and the seller listed very sparse contact info .... which is also a tactic of people selling hot goods - I also noticed that the ad was in San Fran (not Minnesota or something) which also seemed like it could have been the guy,,,
So I notified Kenny and Howard,,, who checked it out and found it to be legit...

htt*://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/msg/1030695438.html

I thought Id post this so anyone who sees this "particular" ad will know its OK..
Cheers
Charlie

That sucks. However, if I understand your payment policy correctly, you did at least receive half the value of these guitars. Correct? Not that it wouldn't suck hard anyway, but at least it would suck half as much...

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

You could say he ended up with a hill o' beans; but watch it, you're on thin ice.

I am dismayed that so far there appears to have been exactly zero attention payed to this by either the LBPD or the BofA. And that is not a request for more advice about our various industrious police agencies.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Yeah... from my experience, the police rarely catch robbery suspects unless it's either something major like a bank or something stupid like robbing a convenience store next to a police precinct in broad daylight (Yes, I have witnessed this...). I wish you the best of luck, though and do hope that the perpetrator is brought to justice.

A few years back our medical office was broken into and ransacked by folks looking for drugs. When I got there at 6AM there was broken glass everywhere, blood on the carpet where the robbers had cut themselves and fingerprints on the glass. We were careful not to touch anything and when the police arrived we asked about the prints,blood etc. They said it wasn't worth the trouble, nothing was stolen, and they just blew it off. They definitely have a triage system
when it comes to making an effort to solve a crime. Hope not, but I'm guessing stolen guitars are pretty far down the priority ladder.
Too bad the guy didn't shoot a deer out of season or been caught sneaking a freezer chest of Walleyes across the Canadian border. He'd be in jail already.
TJK

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Reading these kinds of stories sparked some sour memories for me concerning robbery and being violated by the
scum who commit it. I had bought a property in the town where I grew up back in 1984. It was a large double dwelling
with each side being 2300 sq. ft. and having four bedrooms and three baths. It needed renovation so I moved into one
side of the dwelling to live there while I renovated the other and planned to move next door to do the same to the other
side.

Well, I moved into this familiar and relatively decent neighborhood for the town I was moving back to after four years
away and set the first place up for me to live in. I had a great stereo, what were, at the time, a pair of large TVs and all
of musical gear there when I was burglarized and robbed one day as I was off playing in New York City with my then band.

I immediately called the police....some of whom were family and old friends....and they came and took my report and a
detailed list of what had been stolen. The burglars had left a full hand print on the tempered glass front of the stereo
cabinet in the living room and it seemed to be so obvious that I couldn't help but to think it was intentional. I asked if the
police were going to take the handprint just in case it was that of a known criminal or someone who they'd dealt with in
the past and they answered with, "You're insured right? It's really not worth the time or trouble to lift the print. "

After some pleading and a phone call from an uncle who was a higher ranking official in the police department, a
detective on the scene reluctantly pulled the print and took the sheet along with him. I got a call a few days later from
my uncle who said that they did match the print to a person, but it was matched to prints on record from his juvenile
criminal activity. He explained that they were not allowed to use those prints to identify him and pick him up since it
was not legal for them to keep on record juvenile fingerprint records. Our system is about as flawed as a system can
possibly be, in my opinion. These kind of ridiculous protocol and procedures make my head soin and my blood boil
any time I hear of another innocent law abiding citizen falling prey to their idiotic shortcomings. It make me wonder if
our lawmakers don;t have more family in crime than not.

So this guy and his two brothers who helped him were going to walk away with no possible legal action and were
going to be allowed to keep the nearly $30k in property that they'd carried out of my place. To this day, almost 35
years later, they have never been punished by the police or court system even though my brothers and I were able to
affect some level of justice only months after the burglary when we happened on one of them on the street. We were
younger, a little crazier and different people back then and those were different times in our country. It was a small
town with a rough reputation and we were on the tail end of the years of still being able to settle something behind
the woodshed, so to speak. Do it today and the scum will own your house and see you off to prison. There was a
certain level of satisfaction that we got from handling it in the only fashion that it was going to be handled, though.

It's just sad that, even now, the law will most times provide more protection for the rights of the criminal and for
their physical welfare than it will for the law abiding victim and their property. As long as you're insured, you may find
some relief from the financial loss caused by a robbery or fraud, but it will never match the satisfaction that can come
from seeing the people who are paid to arrest and incarcerate them doing their jobs.

Any time I see, hear or read about any dirty fraud or criminal being caught, prosecuted and imprisoned, I could throw
a party. That wasn't my only burglary and you never get used to being violated in that way. The second time, my neighbor
actually held the door for the half dozen guys who emptied my studio and helped them load some of the 30 or so guitars
and 24 or so amps that they stole onto their truck. She thought they were mambers of my band that had come to pick up
gear for a gig in the city. I was in Hawaii for two weeks at the time. Yay thieves!

I hope you get the guitars back Howard, and that you can offer a great report of this guy either being busted or
something suitable.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

sorry to hear about this! I recently put some items on local craigslist and have been getting approached by scammers too so I feel your pain! The scammers are more clever all the time. Check out the well worded response I got off craigslist below. Note: no specific mention of item itself or any details that could be tied to specific listing so I'm led to believe people like this target all items of a certain dollar amount, cashier's check raises red flag as it's easy to forge like what happened to you, and lack of personal contact beforehand- all red flags:

"Hello,

Thanks for your prompt reply.I really appreciate your detailed breakdown and frankness on this.Unfortunately, Im on my way to India on an official trip(I'm a marketing Executive) and wont be back for another two weeks, I would have come to inspect the item personally. Im taking your word for true on It though .

Im okay with the price, I think it worth it anyway. If you'd like to know, Im relocating to the UK soon and I'm trying to gather some good stuff for my new abode. Im buying yours amongst others,quickly! before someone else grabs it.So, I'll arrange to send you payment ASAP. However, I'll have to notify my shipper who's helping me move my stuff from the US ,to get set for the pickup of the item from your place as I MIGHT be delayed in India depending on how things goes.
Thanks.

PS: In the mean time, kindly get back to me with your information including your name to write on the check,contact address and your phone# so I can get certified check prepared and have it sent out to you ASAP."

Pretty scammy huh?!

Actually Todd
while that is a very well known variant of the cashier check scam -
this case was different from what I understand it in that
A) the person actually called and spoke at length about guitars and seemed quite knowledgable about luthierie,,, and seemed very genuinely a guitar player/enthusiast -
The "item" was discussed at length and in detail...
and
I dont believe any other requests were made such as send a payment to a third person..
In this respect it seemed very much that the item in question was desired as an object... either to keep or for quick resale....
In such a case as this its not nearly so transparent that its a check scam
as when there is very bad english/syntax/spelling errors and fishy requests involved such as third party payments and bogus shipping...
Cheers
Charlie

Or it could just be Michael!

Sorry, Michael, I couldn't resist!

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Waddy

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