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Hi All,

Just a thought for discussion.
I have not done any pore filling before but I was thinking would it be same if normal white PVA glue is used instead of egg white?
I have done some gap filling with that method, as I have learnt from Hesh's tutorial (thanks to Hesh), and it works perfectly, hiding all traces of the binding gap due to my inexperienced and shoddy work.
It works in the similar principle right?
Of course I would definitely be trying out the egg white thing since its much cheaper than PVA and more natural.
Thanks everyone for the valuable information.

_________________
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Sen CL Goh
http://senguitar.blogspot.com

Sen, thats a pretty box in your avatar...mind posting some more?

Mike

One other point Kim. Sorry for interjecting, but with proper protective gear (respirator, gloves, etc) no one should suffer over exposure to epoxy or any other product we use in guitar building.

Mike

Sorry Mike,

I did try to explain why a respirator and gloves will not prevent exposure earlier, if you don't want to believe what I posted or can't take the time to read or understand it that is your choice. But for people who are forced to work with epoxies because it is all they know how to make a living with, they really only have two safe options once they become sensitised. They either leave the industry, or they work with a $3K full chemical suit fitted with positive air pressure mask. Why? Because this is the only way they can avoid re-exposure. This means that any other measures will still leave the user exposed to epoxy to varying degrees.

As I understand, a normal chemical fume rated respirator cartridge is useful for only a short period before saturation point is reached and the cartridge losses much of it's efficiency. Once again the fumes molecular structure is so small they make their way through your clothing and skin and into your blood stream. With each exposure, no matter how small, comes the potential to triggering the immune system to start creating those 'T'cells I mentioned earlier. Once that happens the chemical message remains in your body forever, you have just become sensitised and your body will now react by creating these 'T'cells with each new exposure. Gloves do not stop you from absorbing fumes into the rest of your body, at best, dependant upon their construction, they may protect your hands, at worst they may cause more of a toxicity problem for you.

F.Y.I, my advise comes directly from one of Australia's top industrial dermatologist. At $187.00 for a 10 minute consultation, this man is a specialist in his field and is recognised as such internationally. He is active in research and lectures at universities and teaching hospitals across the country. When he was treating me for my own affliction, which was to prescribe steroids to shut down my immune system and stop the self-destruction of body tissue, I had ask how the epoxy had gotten into my skin when I had been fully covered with long pants, long sleeves, gloves, shoes, sock and a respirator? He replied, "Human skin and clothing is about as effective a barrier against epoxy fumes as it is to mulberry juice, it just goes straight in, it is really no barrier at all."

I got no idea where you have been getting your information from, but I hope you don't need to go through what I did to discover that when it comes to contact dermatitis, they don't have a clue what they are talking about.



Anyhow, I have tried to be nice in answering your questions and responding to your suppositions but would now much prefer if you would respect the intended direction of this thread and remain on topic from here on with focus remaining upon grain filling with egg whites. There are probably 2 or 3 active topics currently at the OLF dealing with epoxy, if anyone wants to know about those products they can join in on those threads or research the countless threads now in the archives. As for myself and I suspect others I am active here to work on a very promising way that will hopefully allow me to avoid using those products. Quite frankly I find these repeated interjections not in the least bit helpful to that cause.

Cheers

Kim

Kim (and others),

Again, sorry for interjecting. According to the MSDS:

Section 2 - HAZARDOUS INGREDIENTS INFORMATION:
Hazardous Components OSHA ACGIH OTHER %
(Common Names, CAS Number) PEL TLV LIMITS OPTION
Reaction products of epichlorohydrin
& bisphenol A * (23085-99-8) 75-100 <-- this is the problem child**
O-cresyl glycidyl ether (2210-79-9) 10-30

Section 8 - CONTROL MEASURES:
Respiratory Protection (Specify Type): A NIOSH approved vapor canister may be used to maintain
vapor concentration below TLV.
Ventilation: Local Exhaust: To maintain vapor concentration below TLV.
Mechanical (General): As needed.
Protective Clothing or Equipment: Safety glasses/goggles with side shields, rubber gloves and
apron to protect skin and clothing.
Work/Hygienic Practices: Wash hands with soap and water after use. Launder contaminated
clothing before reuse. <--this is where Kim admitted he reused the same clothing over and over

Kim has decided that I have no right to speak on this and that I should not post here. I disagree. In fact, I would have posted no more had he not accused me indirectly of being ignorant (publicly) and asked me to leave the thread. In fact, it was his experieince ( I read the entire thread and posted thanks for it) that led me to carefully read the MSDS (BEFORE using Z-Poxy) and research bisphenol A... you may have heard about the baby bottle issue and so on.

According to this: http://children.webmd.com/features/bisp ... nd-answers, we are all exposed to it (96% of us). In Kim's case, it could have been insult to injury (other sources as well), but by wearing the same clothes over and over, he failed to follow the MSDS. Also, reactions over time and exposure are different for different people. There is no concensus on what to do, but following MSDS is strongly reccomended.

Overexposure to anything but water and air is likely to cause you trouble. Not reading MSDS and following their reccomendations is not smart either, no matter what a $187/10 minute doctor may say.

Chastising fellow board members in public is not nice either (I know, I made that mistake recently, and took care of it). Thats what PMs are for. The zeal of those who have "seen the light" like smokers who have quit smoking can be helpful. But taken to extremes it can be hurtful. Maybe try being a little nicer to me? I meant no harm to you.

Mike

Good advise Mike! Thanks!

Folks, please try to keep comments in the friendly form. I know that discussions can become heated and that is fine, but when they become personal, even in the slightest, that is where they go off track.

Be happy!

Thanks!
Lance

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Firstly, I have at no time told Mike that he should not comment in this thread, I simply implied that he should respect the intended focus of the thread and stay on the topic of "Egg whites for pore filling"

Secondly, I have never made a secret of the fact that I re-wore dust impregnated clothes, that was the point of my original epoxy post, to warn others of my folly and the dangers of using epoxy products. However that does not remove the importance of advise given to me at $18.70 a minute by a man suitably qualification to make comment over and above what you would expect to read in an MSDS, or validate the diagnosis offered by some one who read one of my posts.

As for chastising, I find it difficult to identify the concern and feel that there may be some other form of sensitisation at play here not at all related to chemical exposure. None the less, if we are to now complete the derailment of the original topic "egg whites for pore filling" with lessons on "forum etiquette", the motives behind starting out a post in a thread based upon a diametrically apposed process to your own with the words "I know no one in here wants to hear this, but" must be questioned. Was the intent to enlighten and share as per the focus of the OLF, or was the design to create controversy and conflict?

I find it difficult to see how anyone who had taken the time to add such a line of introduction to their post would have not first identified their input would be inflammatory to the majority already involved in the thread, yet made a conscious decision to go fishing for conflict. Sorry, but I find this kind of thing somewhat more disrespectful to board members than any perceived chastising.

Is it at all possible that we could now respect the title of this tread and get back on topic? Or do we need to continue with this Hijack until it is totally destroyed?

The answer is yes, absolutely! The floor is yours Kim my dear friend and anyone else's who wishes to discuss using egg whites for pore filling. Please have at it.

Please carry on with egg whites. My initial comment was out of place. 6 days of the flu and I'm not using good judgement at all. Hesh, remove ALL of my comments on this thread please (except this one). It would be nice if Kim agreed as well as to have all of his removed (with respect to my comments) as well so as to avoid any confusion. None of this serves this useful thread by any means.

I am sorry.

Mike

OK, well then I will continue !

I just put on the bindings and purfling . Now, I was thinking of getting some egg-white on the top ! is this a good or bad idea ? I dont want the color of the top to change !. Sizing etc ??

Lars.

Thanks Mike, I am still pretty stuck with my progress.
I will post some more pictures when I have completed the whole thing.


Actually what does the egg white do to the top?
Make it looked more ancient?
I can understand pore filling for the backs and sides but what exactly will the egg white to the top?

_________________
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Sen CL Goh
http://senguitar.blogspot.com

Alright!

Good to be back on track, both with this thread and with my pore fill attempts.

As I wrote earlier, I was having a fair bit of frustration with how it worked for me. I decided to sand everything down again and give the egg another try. I was going to just do the drywall compound/shellac method 'cause I thought I might have a breakdown if I tried the egg again with the same end result.

Happily, the egg worked well for me this time. And I learned a good lesson about patience and perseverence. I think my diagnosis of my problems in my last post were correct, as well as Kim's suggestion to omit the ROS and use sanding blocks and a little elbow grease instead.

I was really disappointed/stressed after my first attempt, but I really happy with how it's looking now. I've padded on a couple coats of varnish, and it's looking 1000 times better. I'm really happy with how it's coming now. As a bonus, I actually enjoyed the surface prep this time around. I think the main difference is I wasn't in a rush. I worked in small sections at a time and really did my best to eliminate all the scratches before beginning the varnish process.

Thanks to everyone for all your input in this thread. Especially Colin. If I didn't have your finishes to look at and see the potential of the egg fill/rub-on varnish finishes, I might have given up. I'm glad I didn't and I'm sure this will be my best finish attempt yet.

How's your's coming, Dave?

-Clint Beacock

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-Clint Beacock

Hey Clint,
glad to hear you're finding success.
it sounds very much as though you and I are having a parallel experience with this.
I'm just about ready to sand back to bare wood and start again.

Do you have some pictures you could post of 'finished' product?

dave

Well I to have tried the egg white now ! Both the top and all around the body. I am workin on a black limba guitar, and the pored are HUGH !! so its not easy , allthough after a few coats it´s staring to look great ! on the back i even tried to use the whole egg (yolk and white !) the difference here was that after it had dried and I started sanding, i got a real fine white layer, lookt like concret dust. but after rubbing it and using a moisterized rag on it it workt great.

The reason for me using the yolk aswell was that I had a talk with my uncle, who is a restoration painter, restores old church paintings etc, he said that the yolk is the hardener, and the white was more like the second part of the opoxy bottle. he gave me some nice names for it, but ia m sorry to say its forgotten now . well got another layer to put down will tell more soon.

PS. the white on the top made the fibers stand up, so it became real nice to sand it.

Lars

No expert here Sen, but I believe that egg whites used as a 'sizing' on a top is not meant to 'colour' the wood so much but rather stiffen and seal it in preparation for a french polish or oil finish. At least this is what I seem to recall from one of Colin's post. I do hope he we tune in again and clarify this for you.

Having said that, I should also mention that I did have excellent results with true oil applied directly to spruce with no sealing agent applied at all. Despite what many, including myself may at first assume when considering an 'oil' applied directly to a raw wood surface, penetration was very minimal, no really any more than you would expect from any other finish out there. I would put this down to the fact that the name "True Oil" is a little misleading and the product should probably be called "True Fast Drying Rubbing Varnish" because just as long as it is applied very, very thinly, (this is 'the' secret of a good true oil finish, lots of thin coats wiping off all excess after each application) it will seal and dry well before it penetrates very much at all, even on soft woods like spruce.




Great news Clint

Thanks for your perseverance with this and taking the time to share your results with us. I am really happy to hear that you actually enjoyed the process and it has worked well for you this time. How long did you leave it to dry out before sanding back and which grit of abrasive did you work to prior to padding on the varnish?

Glad to hear that your hanging in there as well Dave, lets hope your perseverance pays off and it all goes well for you too.



Apology accepted Mike,

In the interest of continuity, I too would be quite happy to see non topic related material removed from this thread. However in the years I been a member here at the OLF I have never seen this happen before, so I would imagine it is very unlikely to happen in this instance. Just a good reminder for everyone to stick to the business at hand in the future I suppose and not to get side tracked.

Anyhow, great to be back on course here and I too apologise if my responses to Mike had caused the break in transmission to go on any longer than necessary. It would seem that epoxy contact dermatitis has the capacity to make me flair up in more ways than one.

Cheers all

Kim

Hey Lars,

Never heard of anyone using the yoke as well on a guitar before but it may be just fine. I would be a little concerned about clarity, and maybe the smell down the track as well, but I suppose you just don't know until you give it a try so I applaud your willingness to give things a go before you write them off. I do have one question, did you make a slurry with abrasive when you applied the egg as we have been discussing here, or did you simply brush the egg straight onto the wood?

Cheers

Kim

I wouldn't use the yolk at all on any part of the guitar. Egg tempura for painting is a different matter, but on wood the fats in the yolk could be a problem for later finishing. Skills from one craft do not necessarily transfer to another, particularly when they are being used for a different purpose.

Stick to using the white only.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Thanks for that info Colin, i got most of i think, and then put another coat of "white" over it. !!
Kim, I I tried both slurry and right out of the shell. also tried slurry in the fridge,took away the bubbly thingy and used the runny part. What seem to work best in my opinion is right out of the shell !! I then used a pensel to apply it on the guitar, let it dry till it was "almost" fully dry, then sanded light to medium hard with normal sandpaper 180 and or 240 grit. then Applied another coat. etc. the pores on the limba are large !! but a few coats and the pores looks like they are well covered. will send a photo so you can see the result.
might be hard see perhaps.

That looks really good Lars. Bet you can't wait to get the finish on, she is going to look beautiful.

Cheers

Kim

Glad to see everyone making nice. I can't say enough good things about the people on this forum--well done!

Just thought I'd share one more perspective on the egg whites approach. I'm currently experimenting with egg whites as a pore filler on EIR and have had less than stellar results. I've been using the whites straight from the shell, brushing them onto small sections of the guitar and then creating a slurry with 220 grit sandpaper. It looks promising at first, but when I sand back I'm finding pores still open. After four coats I'd say it's doing an okay job, but certainly not glass-smooth. It may be that I'm simply being too aggressive when sanding back. I don't know. I like the technique and will certainly continue to experiment with it, but so far it has not been a magic bullet for me. Just my .02 cents.

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George :-)

Hey George,

Good to have you join in. From what I understand both Allen McFarlen and Colin apply the egg white with the abrasive paper by simply dipping it into a bowl of mix and then working the wood in a small area at a time. They are then careful not to over work the slurry once it begins to dry out and stiffen a little for risk of pulling the mix back out of the pores.

It could be that when you are brushing the egg on it is bridging the pores and preventing the slurry from filling them. I am not saying that this 'is' happening to you, but it may be worth considering as the experience of others does tend to indicate that there is a very real potential for this bridging of the pores to happen should you first apply the mix via brush.

Cheers

Kim

Thanks, Kim. I should have been more clear in my post. Whether applied with a brush or dabbed on with sandpaper (I've tried both techniques) I have then immediately sanded the still wet surface to create a slurry of egg whites and wood dust. So I don't think there is any problem with the pores being bridged. Each time the results have looked very promising, but I've been disappointed upon sanding back. As I noted above, I've not given up on this method and will continue to experiment. Like many others here I'm keen on reducing the use of chemicals in my guitar building.

_________________
George :-)

Dave, I didn't take any photos this time around. I can't say that my results were perfect, as I think I oversanded a bit on the back of the guitar. I was a little overzealous in wanting to make sure I didn't have any discoloration. As soon as I saw that some of the pores were opening up a little, I stopped and proceeded to the finish. So there is a little bit of 'pore-age' happening.

The sides however, are -near- perfect as far as I can tell. The headplate and endgraft are EIR, and were much easier to fill fully than the Koa. I'm pretty sure the back was near perfect too before I oversanded, so I'm confident I'll do even better on the next guitar.

Kim, I let the egg dry a full 24 hours before sanding back. I then worked my way up to 320 grit (or maybe 400). When I did the slurry, I used 320 grit and went with the grain on the second app to avoid having to deal with cross grain scratches. I found the fine grit worked a little better for me. I don't think you really need much grit at all to get the slurry happening. 320 is still a lot coarser than the pumice I used on my first guitar.

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-Clint Beacock

I do have a question that perhaps someone (Colin?) might be able to answer for me.

With french polishing, one of the advantages is that while you're building up with the bodying sessions, it's never to late to work some pumice into any pores that you come across.

Is there something that can be done in my case where there are some small pits on the back. I'm using padding on Tru-oil varnish in very thin applications as Colin has often suggested, and I'm really loving the way it's looking, but if there was a way to fill these little pores without a complete sanding down of the back to bare wood, I'd love to do it.

Can egg be thinned perhaps with something so I could do a small wipe-on application, followed by a little levelling back to the finish, and proceed?

Thanks

_________________
-Clint Beacock

Clint,
It's good to hear things are working out for you.

I, on the other hand, am ready to give up and find a new obsession. Or even an old one. I didn't even go ice fishing this winter (I blamed the baby, and having a four and five year old in the house but everyone here probably knows the real reason.)

I will say that the back on both instruments is near perfect. The sides are another story.
Before coming up to the computer, I even got out the tins of McFaddens paste filler and started looking for the lacquer thinner.

This is an enigma. It SHOULD work.
To get the back just right,
1. I made some dust from end grain
2. sealed the wood with shellac
3. worked the dust into the pores using 400 grit sandpaper and egg whites
4. sanded back
5. repeated with dust and 400 grit.
6. scoweled at the few pores that were still open.

Prior to 1. I had four or more sessions using 220 grit.

Once I had things right with the back, I tried the same process on the sides.
However, they did not turn out as nice as the back (nor do they have as many sessions as the back.) I was able to resist the urge to throw the whole works on the shop floor. that is probably my one accomplishment for the whole ordeal.

suggestions anyone?