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If I'm reading the Cyril's method correctly, he is filling the pores entirely with egg white - i.e. he is not sanding while the egg whites are wet on the wood to create a slurry of dust and whites. By applying it several times, he is re-filling the shrink-back. So, that is a very different method, and one I find very interesting. I would imagine it gives a very different look - more of a clear filler look. I still wonder, though, if this could be done equally effectively or even more effectively with straight egg white rather than the separated glare stuff. Just speculatin', though. I'll try it sometime and let y'all know my results.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Shawn had some posts a couple of years ago about the use of egg whites. I believe he was filling with pure egg white too - no slurry. Search the archives, and put "Shawn" in the Author field. There are a couple of discussions.

Here is the search result: search.php?keywords=%22egg+white%22&terms=all&author=Shawn&fid[]=10102&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I'll simply try with the straight egg white this evening and I'll say you if, on my opinion, it make a difference or not. I've got 4 broken "training" mahogany sides to test (yep... very difficult to bend sides correctly for a beginer) - I'll put pictures of the result too ...

here is a picture taken by a member of another (french) forum. It's his own job; he sometime comes on OLF too (don't remember his nickname here). He does it by using exactly the same method than mine (using the glare), but he applies a french polish on this one. A direct link to is own post on the "Benoit-De-Bretagne" forum : http://www.benoit-de-bretagne.com/phpBB ... f&start=15

Sorry Cyril, nothing personal was intended and I do appolagise if you felt that way.

My comments were directed at statements and speculations read "on the Internet over the last few month", not at your post specifically. And it is true, I have seen a number of statements which start out advising the use of glare with an explanation of how this medium had been used by luthiers and artist since antiquity as a sizing, only to finish in stating something along the lines of, 'at least that's how I would do it if I used egg whites to pore fill, but I don't'.

In case you are wondering the reason my post in this thread have focused strongly upon the slurry method as employed by both Colin and Allen, it is because Colin is a highly respected luthier in every sense. His expertise in the area of stringed instruments and their finishes has seen him in the past commissioned to perform restoration work upon museum exhibits and Allen McFarlen has made his living based upon finishing for many, many years. Images of Allen's previous builds have clearly demonstrated a level of expertise in this area of the craft that cannot be ignored. Between the two this is rich ore indeed for those mining for answers about finishing techniques. However you are of course correct, there is more than one way to skin a cat and the method you describe given to you by Mr Osman should certainly not be ignored.




Yes, by all means Cyril please do, this would be most helpful to all of us I'm sure.

Cheers

Kim

OK Kim ... sorry if I misunderstood. I apologize, my bad english may have lead me astrey ... I've read the OLF a lot before to write here, and I totally agree : Colin and Allen are people with an important level of expertise we can't ignore. As Todd said, the two way of doing things are strongly different : I'll wait for his results and I'll do more tests on my side, to share my results too.

Geez, Cyril, all the words on that forum are in French. What's a guy supposed to do?

Just proves how versatile you are. You are also a good sport, and you defend your position well. Good for you and Kim.

I, too, have seen some of those posts, Kim.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Cyril is right of course, you can fill pores by just applying coats of egg white, many violin makers will do this, indeed that's what I did on my recent violin, however, the pores on violin quality European maple are not exactly cavernous, and if you didn't fill the pores the first coat of varnish would do the job! Filling with just coats of egg white was common on the 17th and 18th century instruments (when they bothered to fill pores) but I guess when someone tried to sand it when the egg white was still soft and created a slurry, they found that the pores filled quicker, and so that's how it evolved.

Either way will work, just one takes longer.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I just tried both methods a couple of nights ago. It was my first time so take anything I say with that in mind.

Initially, I liked the idea of just brushing it on. Seems some were doing that with success, and it sounded a little easier. Also, I had gone up to 600 grit all over the body already to prepare for a tru-oil finish, and I didn't want to start sanding with 220 again. In other words, I let my laziness pick which method to use.

I didn't like the results I was getting at all after 3 apps. The koa I have of course has very large pores, and the whites (straight out of the egg, not the glair) didn't seem to want to fill them very well. And I wasn't liking the looks of the ones that were filled. Actually, I hated the way it was looking. At about 11:00 at night I decided to sand a little in, and what a difference! The pores were filling almost instantly, and in a color I liked. I've only ever used the pumice method while french polishing before, and this was MANY times quicker.

No question for me, I'll never brush it on again (to fill the pores - I brushed it on the top to size and raise the grain and that seemed ideal).

I'll have to wait till I'm done the finish to know if I'll keep with the egg fill in the future, but if I find it looks good under finish, it sure seems like a good, non-toxic way to go.

Thanks everyone for all the input so far.

I have one question. Has anyone ever read any scientific (or at least pseudo-scientific) reason for using the glair instead. If the only reason I ever hear is 'tradition', it seems unlikely I'll ever bother to try it. But I am still interested.

-Clint

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-Clint Beacock

I've try to fill with all the egg white yesterday (not only the glare). Same method, same wood, same count of coats and ... same result on my side. It's just a little more "wet" with the complete egg white, easyer to apply too. So, for me, it's finaly not very different ... tradition, you may be right . But I still just sand when the white egg is dry.

I'll have to test the method you guys use to check the differences.

Thanks guys for comments.



and ... well ... I'm NOT versatile ... I think ... am I ?

Sorry, I've written as a "guest" ... not enough coffee this morning

Fresh back from 5 week hitch at work so not really in any state of mind to provide helpful details. Give me a week to get my sanity back and ill post details of my methods.

Cheers Martin

Thanks Martin, looking forward to it mate, and thank you to everyone else who is helping to bring some clarity to this method. I am really looking forward to hearing back from you to Cyril, it sounds like you are just about to have tested all methods so your input will be most valuable to this discution. I will be running some test myself as soon as other commitments allow me back out to the shop and will post my own findings then.

The main question still open as I see it relates to the issue of sink back. I will paste here what I put to Colin on the last page which he may have missed since we moved on in the hope he will share his thoughts.



Thank you once again everyone, considering my recently developed intolerance to epoxy, this has been a most valuable thread for me.

Cheers all

Kim

Kim, you've got it right, leave to dry overnight after the first application, lightly sand back next day and repeat if needed.

Using sandpaper to create a wood/albumen slurry which is deposited in the pores creates much less problem with sink back as it dries. Basically you are filling with wood in an albumen matrix. I've not had a problem with sink back after the second application.

As to which sand paper to use for the job, well to be honest I use the one that is on top in the drawer, but generally would use the 240.

Golden rule of course is try any new method out on off-cuts first and see what papers etc suit your way of doing it, I can't dictate how hard you press or any of the other factors.

By the way I use eggs from my wife's chickens, she only has two, and I find that Harriet's eggs are just as good as Gertrude's.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Good grief, yet another variable to consider

Thanks for clearing that up Colin, very much appreciated. Time for me to put all this great information into practice and see how it works for me.

Cheers all

Kim

Brown eggs or white?

Seriously, I too have followed this thread with interest and intend to use the sanded slurry method on my current build. This is my first acoustic but I've built several other instruments and lots of furniture and don't really want to use the epoxy or CA fill methods.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I like the sound of the sanding slurry method, but...

With my current guitar project, which has EI rosewood back and sides and koa bindings, I don't want rosewood sanding dust in the pores of my koa bindings, or koa sanding dust in my rosewood sides.

Obviously, some strategy involving masking off of the bindings or sides would be involved. How would you all deal with this situation?

Cheers
Pete

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Cheers
Pete

Now in the second week of working on this thing, I can make another observation.
The sapele instrument is turning out beautifully. No problems what so ever, but then the pores are not as deep as those on the Walnut. This evening after letting it sit since friday, I did note that there was some shrink back. So I slurried up some more and will see how she looks tomorrow.

I too have been interested in trying egg whites. Can some one please define the following words from this thread:

Glare:

Sizing:

Also how many eggs are we talking here? And do you have any recipes for egg yolks

Glare is what you get when you whip eggs to stiff peaks, then leave to sit for a day. The way I have seen is, after letting sit, refrigerated, overnight, pour a half shell(the smaller half of the broken shell) over the whipped egg, then pour off the glare, which is the water and wattery egg that ran out of the whipped eggs after sitting like that. The whipped part is discarded. Some people don't add the half egg of water, but just drain off the "glare" and toss the whipped part. It gets rid of some of the solids present in the egg whites.

Sizing is similar to starch in a shirt. Actually, it is what is added to the yarn in the mill, to stiffen it up and strengthen it against all the friction involved in the weaving process. It is what makes a new shirt or set of sheets, or anything like that stiff feeling. in this application, the egg soaks into the soft wood, and does the same thing, i.e. stiffens the fibers some. It also happens to seal woods that bleed.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I know no one in here wants to hear this, but (as Hesh told me) z-poxy thinned 50:50 (d-alcohol) and apllied as a "wash" is incredibly easy. No squeegee, no razor blades. No saw dust to bind or mess with the chatoyance and sanded back with 220, you would swear the thing was made out of glass. I blow the body off prior with compressed air.

Wear gloves and a good NIOSH respirator just to be safe as some folks develop sensitivities to epoxy (darn good thread on this recently.) Heck, some folks are alergic to eggs! On top of it all, it apears to do a good job of hardening the surface (especially the spruce stuff).

I just rubbed it in with a cotton rag. I am certain the d-alcohol helps it wick in further. Thicker stuff can be used for gaps, etc.

OK, carrion.

Mike

Then what is the point of your post Mike, just stirring the pot are we?

The fact that you had read enough of this topic to feel the need to make such a statement seems to indicate that you also understand most, if not all who have participated in this thread up until your interjection are 'fully' aware of zpoxy, it's use and the hazards associated with exposing ones self to such an insidious cocktail of chemicals. That is precisely why we are discussing egg whites as a safe and effective alternative to these epoxy based products.

I suppose, as you point out, some people are 'allergic' to egg whites. But chances are they would be well aware of that fact long before they ever get around to building their first guitar. Egg whites do not present near the same threat as does a sleeping sensitizers like epoxy products. Quite frankly I think anyone who would make any comparison at all between the threats to health these two substances could present is only demonstrating they are completely misinformed.

If that is the case, then I sure do hope your lack of understanding never sees you find out first hand just what it is your really messing with when using epoxy. Most people don't seem to understand that molecular structure of the fumes given off by these products is so small it is near impossible to completely protect your body from absorbing them without a full chemical suit and positive pressure air mask. You do not need to be breathing these fumes to become sensitized, you do not need to have the epoxy come in contact with your skin to become sensitized. These fumes very easily permeate through clothing and 'INTO' the skin and mask and gloves don't stop that. In fact some of the thinner gloves only add to the toxicity of those chemicals entering the body as the fumes pass 'through' the gloves dissolving their compounds as they go.

Don't be mislead, 'everyone' is allergic to epoxy fumes, they are poisonous to all humans. You may not display any symptoms of 'sensitivity' to this poison today, but tomorrow is full of potential and that is what sensitizers are all about. Nothing at all one day, and the next the body decides it has had enough of this unknown invader and reacts. Because the human body has no formulated response mechanism to deal specifically with these chemical invaders, it responds in the only way it knows how, and that is in the mass production of killer 'T'cells.

These 'T' cells are programed to kill everything indiscriminately in any affected area and this includes the bodies own tissue be that skin, nerve, lung etc, etc. This is what becoming sensitised is all about, it may take a while, but your immune system eventually learns to deal with certain toxins in this way and will do so with more devastating success with each new exposure. The consequence of such an attack can range from being as subtle as a little bit of redness on the inside of the wrists, to being so severe that it will see the victim on an oxygen bottle for the rest of their days, or it can be anywhere in between these two extremes. No question though, once you are sensitised, you roll the dice with the severity of reaction with each new exposure.

If egg whites do fill the pores in wood just as effectively as epoxy, why would anyone bother rolling the dice?

Cheers

Kim

As for myself, Mike, I'd like to use the Z-poxy as well, but I'm in a small basement shop with a 4 month old in the house and a wife with a bloodhound of a sense of smell. Whatever method I use has to be quite safe - and epoxy fumes really aren't ideal in a tightly closed space like mine. I assume many here are in the same position as me.

And so, I'm TRYING to get the egg method to work for me, but I'm having a couple of problems and getting frustrated. Given the success others are having, I'm sure it's just my method, but I need help sorting out what went wrong. So here's what happened:

1. The pores looked to be nicely filled after I did the slurry thing the second time (I only VERY lightly sanded between runs - not down to the wood). When I got around to sanding down to wood using my ROS w/ 220 grit, The filled pores became unfilled before my eyes. I barely got down to the wood in various patches when this happened so I don't think I went too deep and opened up new pores.

2. I thought I'd put a little varnish on to see if it was close enough to filled (after sanding to 320) and I found two problems (aside from the pores clearly needing proper filling). There were a lot of scratches still showing from sanding the slurry in w/220g. Also, when I sanded to wood, I still had a couple swaths across the back that were a bit discolored from the egg. It seemed to permeate the surface a little, and given that the pores weren't looking great, I didn't want to sand any deeper than I had to. When I put the varnish on, the discolored sections looked awful, almost a bit greeny (Koa back).

Needless to say, I'm gonna sand everything right down and start again. Here are my thoughts on possible causes/solutions, but if anyone else has encountered this and can help me out, I'd really appreciate your input.

1. I first tried just brushing the egg fill on. I did a couple apps before doing the slurry method, so I suspect the brushed on egg may have bridged the pores. Perhaps when the slurry method looked like it had worked, the pores were void of fill just under the surface.

2. When you do the slurry, can you just focus sanding strokes with the grain when doing the slurry thing to avoid having to sand the bare wood too deeply and risk revealing new pores? Also, do those who use the egg fill sand it off the surface 100% and not have any problems with new pores coming up?

As I said, I'd like to use the egg method as it seemed to work really quickly in filling the pores, but all the problems that came up when I sanded has me worried about giving it another go. I'm wondering if the tinted drywall compound may sand all off easier and not cause that 'greeny' thing to happen to the Koa.

-Clint

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-Clint Beacock

Clint,

I've not heard of anyone using a ROS to sand back the egg white before, maybe it's just too harsh and it would be better to sand back with elbow grease and a sanding block? Also I think you may be onto your problem when you suggest bridging over the pores in the first application without slurry. Please keep us informed.

Cheers

Kim

Clint,
I'm having similar results.

I've gotten to the point where last night I just started doing an unplanned FP just to see how things are going to look.
The pores aren't perfect, but the shellac is closing them up, so I may just go ahead and start spraying USL this weekend.
Next time, I may seal with shellac before trying the pore fill. The sealer (like what you used with the glare) should eliminated the bottomless pits that I keep trying to fill.
Robbie O'Brian's method of using some pre-collected wood dust would also be helpful (use something to sand a scrap of your back/side wood while collecting with a vaccuum cleaner with a nylon or a sock over it. Then sprinkle the dust as you slurry the egg (he uses shellac, but I found the shellac dried up too quickly and after five or six applications I gave up.))

I like the lack of toxicity of this process. However, I was elated a little too quickly as things settled and shrunk back... twice.

It IS worth trying though. But I have a long way to go before perfection is accomplished.

Dave

Sorry Kim... did not mean to offend.

My appologies.

Mike