Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2025 6:32 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:47 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:06 pm
Posts: 169
A while back I asked a joining question, however it referred to archtops. Now, this current question here refers to a Classical top. As I've said in some past posts, I want to eventually make a Classical/Archtop Hybrid. The top will be made just like a CL but the back will be arched Maple.

I bought a set of cheap Euro Spruce for the top. I guess it would fall into the "bargain/practice" category, but boy does it ring like a bell!!! Reason I mention Hesh in the Subject Line is because back when I had my question about archtop joining he mentioned using some kind of tape method (I don't think he realized I was making an archtop :). Well Hesh, now I'd really like to hear about that tape method!!!

Here's the thing.... For this one build I was thinking of joining the top and back with Hide Glue. I've always used Titebond white glue. I've heard that while the Hide is drying it literally helps pull the joint together. Is that so? Also, can I do Hide without buying all of the million dollar pots and accessories? Would a funky old pot from my Mother's kitchen work? Any info is appreciated, as the only source I have about building anything but an archtop is the Cumpiano book. Are there any tutorials on joining with Hide using tape? Better yet, if there are members that have done just that I'd love to hear about your experience. Thanks!
-John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:18 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:45 pm
Posts: 730
Location: Lincoln, NE
First name: Paul
Last Name: Burner
City: Lincoln
State: Nebraska
Zip/Postal Code: 68506
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Hesh's tutorial on his tape method can be found here:

http://luthiersforum.3element.com/forum ... orumTop%22

_________________
P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:39 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:02 am
Posts: 2351
Location: Canada
First name: Bob
Last Name: Garrish
City: Toronto
State: Ontario
Country: Canada
Status: Professional
Get a candle warmer, coffee-cup warmer, etc for $5 that stays close to temp and it'll do the trick. You can get an IR thermometer for $15 at a place like Harbor Freight (US) or Princess Auto (CA).

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:03 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13631
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Sorry John my friend I was out plowing snow..... [headinwall] [headinwall] [headinwall] gaah :D

Paul bro thanks for posting the tape method link. There is also a great toot on Sylvan Wells (Google him) site about the tape method.

Here is a HHG toot that you should read: http://luthiersforum.3element.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12088

I use the tape method with Titebond or HHG with HHG being the preference these days. I suspect that it would also work well with Fish glue too.

Yes HHG will actually, as it cures, have a bit of a self-clamping affect which is one of the very cool things about this ancient glue. There is an initial, about 10 seconds or so, tack too that is very useful when positioning braces.

Just be sure to have a well prepared joint first, no glue that we want to use will be a substitute for a well prepared joint.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:20 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:32 am
Posts: 104
Location: Palo Alto, CA US
I remember reading somewhere that for tape-joining like this, 256-gram
strength HHG is preferable, whereas the 192-gram strength stuff is
better for the rest.

I believe the 256-gram glue has more of the "self-clamping effect", but
less open time.

I have a can of Behlen HHG, which is the 256 and some 192,
which is what LMI sells.

Anyone else do this?

(By the way, if anyone is curious, the number refers to the weight required to
get a standard needle to penetrate a standard distance into solidified, room
temperature bunch of glue, if I'm not mistaken.)

Eric


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:22 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:58 am
Posts: 2774
Location: Tampa, Florida USA
Here's a good pot. I fill it with water and put the HHG in a jar and set it in the pot and put the jar lid between the burner and jar. Some weight the jar of HHG with Stainless nuts or bolts and I think marbles maybe too. I also use it for potting pickups with wax in the jar. Scotch 233 tape works very well as does the binding tape. NAPA or a Auto Body Supply should carry the 233 tape and it's less then painters tape.
http://www.amazon.com/Rival-4071-WN-32- ... B00006IUXU
http://www.shop3m.com/70006246493.html


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:03 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3444
Location: Alexandria MN
The Wells technique works great, I just joined two tops with it and was well satisfied.
TJK

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:13 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:22 pm
Posts: 766
-


Last edited by TonyFrancis on Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:41 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:12 pm
Posts: 6994
First name: Mike
Last Name: O'Melia
City: Huntsville
State: Alabama
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
This may be a bit OT (but not much). I use that spanish clamping method (rope and wedges). I like it a lot. BUT, sometimes seam alignment can be a problem. Does anyone use a bottom (and possibly top) slats to assure flat joints?

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:37 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:59 pm
Posts: 2103
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Country: Romania
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I used to clamp one half to the glue-board, drive some nails against the outer edge of the second half, and then bend them to somewhat clamp the joint - even with this not much pressure and fish flue, I got invisible glue lines. I just joined a top and upgraded my "jig" by planing a slight taper on that outer edge. Then aligned it to the first half at 99%, and clamped a second block against the taper.
I found out that a hand push is sufficient to wedge it in perfectly and very tightly. After I put the glue, I wedged it by hand, then placed some 40 pounds of weight on it and then hammered the bottom to make sure it's dead jammed. Will see tomorrow how it worked.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Build log


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:30 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:06 pm
Posts: 169
Thanks for the comments everyone! I saved all of the tutorials to my hard drive and I'm gonna check them out tomorrow. Hesh, you said that you mainly use HHG these days. Have you noticed any differences in your builds, all things being equal? For me it's amazing that boards can be joined using tape! I want to try reading up on it a little more. Thanks guys!
-John


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:48 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13631
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
archtop wrote:
Thanks for the comments everyone! I saved all of the tutorials to my hard drive and I'm gonna check them out tomorrow. Hesh, you said that you mainly use HHG these days. Have you noticed any differences in your builds, all things being equal? For me it's amazing that boards can be joined using tape! I want to try reading up on it a little more. Thanks guys!
-John


John bro if you mean tonally here is my answer: I use HHG where it makes sense to me to use it and that includes all bracing, bridge plates, and for gluing on the bridge. For other applications such as installing the top and back plates, gluing the blocks I am not fast enough or jigged-up properly to use it there.

IMHO for bindings it makes no sense to use HHG and likewise for fret boards I use epoxy trying to not induce any warping or back bow that - can - result at times..... from using a water based glue.

What I like about HHG for where I use it is that it is easier for me to clean up than any other glue that I have used. There is also the possibility that since HHG dries very hard and has a very thin glue joint with low dampening it is more efficient at transferring vibration. Can I prove it - no. Can I hear the difference in a HHG braced guitar over a Titebond braced guitar - no. Others may I am sure but I have to be honest as to what I hear and I don't hear a difference or I am not sure that HHG is responsible for what I do hear.

Most of all for me once you start using HHG it is very easy to use and actually kind of fun too. With bracing there is an initial tack that happens too that is greater and faster IMHO than the tack that you get with Titebond and this initial tack helps hold things in place for a few seconds for mortals like me with only two hands.

During my time here on the OLF I somehow got the idea early on that HHG is for advanced users. JJ, Mario, Colin and others convinced me otherwise and of course these guys were right. It's never to early to start to experience the superior results, ease-of-use, and reversible/serviceable bond that HHG provides.

Lastly - it's tradition and I am a guy who digs traditions. :D


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:40 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:03 am
Posts: 6680
Location: Abbotsford, BC Canada
I've used 3 different methods of joining plates, from the dedicated board with wedges along the edge, to the spanish tourniquet, and have now settled on the tape method. Now to make sure the plat is aligned at the seam, I use my go bar deck with a piece of plywood over the top of the seam and about 15 gobars. I have a 1-1/2" thick MDF flat dish that I sit the plates on, tape side down, wax paper between the plates and the supporting members. I'm also using fish glue but I don't think this would be a problem with HHG either, just need to be prepared.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:44 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6262
Location: Virginia
Mike O'Melia wrote:
This may be a bit OT (but not much). I use that spanish clamping method (rope and wedges). I like it a lot. BUT, sometimes seam alignment can be a problem. Does anyone use a bottom (and possibly top) slats to assure flat joints?

Mike


I use a wedge method (no ropes) and I am not sure what you mean by bottom slat but I lay it out on perfectly flat press board with news paper on it and use two 6in wide slats of press board right along the glue line on either side to keep it flat.

The tape method looks very cool, the only thing I don't like about it is the potential for tearing out fibres removing the tape.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com