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Esteemed members of the board,

I know this old horse has been kicked many times, but since the search engine conjures up a whole lotta nothing (or everything, that is) I must ask this question again.

I'm about ready to pore fill a Wenge guitar. It has monstrous pores. I mean these things are so bad that they create air vortexes that cause small airplanes to be sucked into their gapping crevaces as they fly overhead...

In the past, I've tried CA pore filling, but I didn't enjoy the results. It seems that I would get spotty results. True, I was trying to sand back to the wood, but by the time I had done so, and that everything looked homogenous, I just seemed to unearth a whole new multitude of pores. I did, however, like the speed of the process. I'm thinking that I could use thicker CA and not sand back to the wood.

I also have System III and Zpoxy on hand. I did try one coat of Z on a test piece and the results were rather good. However, I didn't sand back to the wood and I'm on the fence about doing this. I'd rather have the finish adhere to the guitar and not a coat of epoxy or CA.

Which brings me to egg whites. Do you mix egg whites with sawdust and then coat the guitar with this? I had tried straight egg whites a while back, but it never really hardened (at least in the 24 hr. span of my impatience) and it seemed that it refused to enter the pores properly, then again, that might have been my technique. Has anyone come up with a good recipy which didn't end in disaster?

Thanks in advance.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Alain couldn't you consider pumice with shellac as well? You need to seal the guitar over the grain filler at some point anyway. I've used z-poxy with mixed results and I hate sanding it. Please let us know what you do and how it works for you.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

BTW "crevaces" is spelled crevices Al bro.......

I think the SystemThree epoxy is your best bet. If you haven't used their stuff before, the mix is absolutely critical - if you don't get the proportions right, or don't mix it thoroughly, it won't set up properly. I've used it on walnut, curly maple, and wenge so far, and it works fine. The wenge will need at least four coats - it must be the most porous wood on the planet.

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---Steve

With the egg white, I've just put a bit on and sanded it with some 180 - 320 grit paper. Depends on the wood. Makes a slurry of wood and egg white that gets worked into the pores. It dries very quickly, is easy to sand back and about as not toxic as you're going to get.

I live in the wet tropics, so I did find that the results of using egg whites a little less satisfactory than using epoxy, in sink back. Probably due to the very high humidity levels. The egg white always seems to sink back in the filled pores just a bit after the instrument has been finished for a couple of months. I don't have this happen with epoxy.

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Allen R. McFarlen
Barron River Guitars & Ukuleles
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

Ricardo, I have actually contemplated pumice and shellac. I will be finishing this instrument with a French Polish finish, by the way. I will try pumice and shellac on a piece of scrap. All things considered, if you take the curing time into consideration, although it might be more involved, it just might be the quickest thing after CA...

Hesh, my mistake! lol Actually, that is the french spelling I used there... but indeed, crevices is the way to write it and these are a few of my favorite things! lol

Cyr, I do have the System III but my bottles are getting a bit old now. I guess I could always test on scrap first, and check if it still cures hard. You're right, the mix is critical with SIII.

Allen, thanks for the input. I will be trying egg whites again. I love the non toxic nature of it, and I think it can stand the test of time, so to speak. The humidity swing dramatically, here in and around Ottawa. We have super high humidity in the summer and then when the winter hits and the heating starts, it plumets. We swing from 80% to 20%.

Thanks for your input, gents. I will test on scrap with all these pore filling mediums. Maybe I could take detailed notes and pictures of all types and post a little demo/tutorial afterwards. Hmmm... I like that idea...

Keep 'em coming!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Just this week I filled a Malaysian Blackwood body using Mcfadden "clear" (not natural) pore filler. I would say this was similar to filling with epoxy maybe a little easier. This is an oil based filler and applies just like their other fillers. I'll probably use it again, reluctantly. It took two coats but the wood has fairly large pores. I suspect it would have taken two coates with epoxy also.

I filled the neck using egg whites. This worked excellent, it also took two coats however. This is a very fast process, I love it. I did it pretty much the same as Allen, he'd posted about his success on it before and thought I'd give it ago. I've heard of this for years and it's suppose to work great on Koa BTW.

I applied the egg white using 400 grit sand paper dipped in the egg white. I used a circular motion creating a slurry that packed the pores. After drying for a hour or so I then sanded the neck back with 320 and noticed some of the larger pores were not completely filled, so I repeated the process. This was a much nicer process than epoxy or the oil based filler and will definately use it again.

I'd do some experiments using the egg white on the Wenge if I were you, I know that Wenge has real large pores so it'll probably take 3 of 4 coates, but it goes really fast.
I should note that I haven't started spraying yet, but every thing seems filled near as I can tell. I'll be spaying later today.

I could post a close up picture (would need to take it) later prior to spraying if it would help anyone.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

So do I. Please do so.

I thought you meant crevasses, as on a glacier, which are very big crevices indeed!

George

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George :-)

I am considering the pumice/shellac route after egg whiting 3 instruments. Too much margin for error; sometimes our British egg white seem to contain a tint that "dirties" the timber although it's a fantastic sealer. Yes, I used to help my mother make souffles when I was a kid, so I do seperate 'em well!! Mind you, I am the type to like my guitars tint-free if at all possible.

I hope this provides some balance to the thread, and hope it doesn't put you off.

Yup if you sand through z-poxy you have to cover it up or sand down to bare wood. I failed to do this on one instrument now you can see a milky film in spots where I didn't get it down to bare wood. I swear next time its egg whites or pumice/shellac.

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

Jim, thanks for sharing your technique with the egg whites. I might have been using too much of it when I tried my little experiment. A close up picture would be banner! You know how we love pics! lol I also like the idea that sanding back would be easier than with epoxy, requiring a little less elbow grease, correct?

George, crevices, crevaces, crevasses... toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe... lol! Scemantics and spelling were never my strong suite!

Sam, although I'm sure my intentions will probably shock some purist into labeling me a heretic, I was thinking of using egg-whites straight from a carton... Heaven knows I have enough of it in my fridge at home! Ha!

Filippo, I had the exact same experience you did on my third guitar. My first had been cherrywood so there was no pore filling needed. The second was master grade set of EIR which was practically poreless. One coat of System III did the trick and I french polished that one. On my third, I used a cheap set of EIR I had bought on ebay and the pores were rather significant. I had all kinds of problems.

My system III wouldn't penetrate into the pores properly and after accepting less than excellent results from pore filling, my impatiente got the best of me and I went and sprayed the guitar with nitro none the less. Maybe the temperature was a bit cold in the shop and it could have used a slight thinning with DA. Well, after the guitar was buffed you could see the mini depressions where the pores were. I wasn't happy with that so I sanded the whole guitar back to wood.

Then I got the bright idea of using an acrylic paste filler, however, the color was all wrong. Now the dude were I bought the stuff swore to me that this stuff dried clear 'like glass'... But when I opened up the can, I was suspicious because the stuff was a pale beige. I decided to test on scrap, but since I couldn't find any off cuts from no.3, I decided to try with scrap from no.2. You can see were this is headed, right? So the test results come up banner because there's hardly a pore to that particular set of EIR so I decided to use it on the guitar. Did I try just a small section to make double sure? Of course not! Although I must admit that the laying down and sanding of this paste filler was very easy, the resulting pale beige pores all over the instrument were not exactly what I was hoping for. And, I must say, that just one good coat did the trick.

So now I was stuck with this increasingly frustrating build (sorry Howard) that just didn't want to co-operate. I tried sanding through the paste but by this time, I'm afraid I'm going to blow through somewhere since I've sanded down this guitar once already and my binding were very thin to start with. I tried some CA and sawdust and again, this worked wonderfully as the pores would dissapear very quickly, however, as soon as I tried to sand down the CA (because I was getting uneven splotches) I would have a whole new set of pores to deal with. Now, I just have a venetian cutaway EIR shop guitar with Waverly's that's awaiting a black paint job...

So the lessons from this long-winded account are many, but I hope that they can help someone, somewhere... but I digress.

So, I will be heading out to the shop on Monday and I'll be testing all these mediums. I will take lots of pictures and I'll report back. You have been warned! lol

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

You said you had CA filled in the past, what thickness of CA did you use and what application method did you use? I use Starbond med thick applied pretty much like epoxy. I use a heavy box cutter razor with rounded edges as my squeegee Just like with epoxy I work in small areas. I as little film build up as possible. Med thick has a quite long open time. Only down side I have encountered was fumes and a fan and respirator in really needed. on wide open pores It take 2 sessions but I have had quite good results.

Filippo when I started building I had so very much trouble with pore filling that I very nearly quit building guitars..... Seriously - I could not get it right.

I was using Stew-Mac's water based pore filler with stain and later the clear stuff. Every time I went to sand it the filler came out of the pores and clogged the paper......

So I tried System III in desperation, I did not know about Z-Poxy yet. Mind you both products that I am speaking of here were/are the "finishing resin" variety which is a thinner viscosity than the glue also available from Z-Poxy and SIII.

Well the worm really turned for me the very first time I tried SIII. After one coat not only did the guitar look fantastic, almost as if it has a finish on it, but -most- of the pores were filled and more importantly stayed filled after I sanded it.

One of the things that I found that I was doing wrong with the water based stuff was learned with my experience with epoxy fillers. I was using the credit type card as a squeegee being more concerned with removing the excess than anything else. Instead what works better, at least for me, was to use the card from all directions to the grain with particular attention to 45 degrees to the grain and "mash" the filler downward into the pores. It is more like trying to shove paint into the wall than trying to coat the surface of the wall. If that makes sense...

Only after working say a 6" X 6" area with the card from all directions mashing the stuff into the pores would I then use the card as a squeegee playing Michelangelo and removing the excess.

I found that I could fill 100% of the pores with two applications with SIII. I also used the silica filler and mixed it to the consistency of whipped cream for the first coat and no filler on the last and second coat.

Back then I was trying to leave a thin coat on the entire guitar which I still do sometimes depending on what's next finish wise or how much I want to pop the figure of the wood. Epoxy does seem to pop the figure on the wood better than anything else that I have used.

Since sanding through the epoxy is likely to happen I learned from Lance here on the OLF to do a final, 3rd coat with the epoxy mixed 50/50 with denatured alcohol and wipe this coat on with a lint free cloth. All this does is apply a very thin film of epoxy that will even out the color where you sanded though. Of course when sanding back the epoxy to only leave it in the pores this is not necessary and the 50/50 coat is so thin that I doubt that any pore filling is happening anyway - it's really just a wetting agent at this point.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it..... Although the water based stuff was a nightmare in hindsight I don't think that I had the technique down, which is really easy once you understand it. Use the squeegee to press the filler into the pores and only after that is done squeegee off the excess.

When I tried Z-Poxy I liked it a little better. First, as mentioned above, the mix ratio is not critical as it is with SIII and second I find that I don't need to add any thickeners to Z-Poxy. Z-Poxy has a very slight amber tint to it where SIII seems to me to be clearer but I like the slight amber tint. Also, silica, mishandled is nasty stuff so it's nice to have that out of my life too.

West Systems is great too and the one time that I used it I had excellent results from one coat on the neck and two coats on the body. Again no thickeners were used with West either. All three, ZP, SIII, and WS sand very well and don't seem to clog the paper at all.

Technique does seem to matter with using epoxy pore filler. This sounds like a good subject for a toot.

Michael, I was hoping you'd reply to this thread as I had a few questions for you. I think the problem was that I used the thinner CA, Hot Stuff from Lee Valley. I do have the medium viscocity, Super T. I will try that one instead. I have mini scrappers that I can use, or I might try box cutter blades too.

Do you find that you get blotchy spots? Do you try sanding back to the wood or do you keep a thin coat on the guitar? I found that the outcome was uneven if I tried leaving it on, some spots seemed to absorb more CA than others and by the time I sanded everything to look uniform, I had new pores to contend with. I guess one could always wipe on some thin CA to get a homogenous look.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Hesh, I guess we were posting at the same time... You know, I think you're onto something there. In an attempt to make my life easier for the subsequent sanding, I might be concentrating too much on removing as much of the epoxy as possible. Although, I do try to hit the pores from an angle and all that, I don't really recall if I try to press the epoxy into the pores.

I'm looking forward to trying all these different mediums and techniques once I return to the shop...

Keep them coming folks!

Thanks!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Al Bro,

I've been using CA to pore fill on the last few instruments and I was just in the shop last night working on an EIR guitar pore filling.

Even the medium viscosity CA sets up faster than I'd like. I've used thicker stuff which seems to work very good and has a fair amount of open time.

I've just used a cloth to rub the CA into the pores, but I think I'll go to the razor blade with rounded corners next time around. The cloth starts to get "hot" as you can imagine from the build up of CA.

I sand back right to the wood, the CA stays in the pores well. The pores that didn't get filled show up easily as the sanding dust from the CA is white and that gets in the pores. A quick blow from the compressor will remove the CA sanding dust from the pores then you can do another fill with the CA, sand back to wood, inspect the pores. When you're done, a couple seal coats of shellac and you're ready to spray.

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Alain, using egg whites straight from the shell might have been part of your problem. Try this glare recipe the next time.

Whip one egg white until stiff peaks form. (Use an electric hand mixer, it will go much faster)
Sprinkle approximately 1/3 egg of water over peaks (“1/3 egg of water” means eggshell
of water, that is, the volume of water that would fill, in this case, the smaller half of the eggshell).
Let stand over night.
Egg whites will become frothy and liquid will separate out; pour this liquid out from
under the froth into a jar. This is the glare. Discard frothy stuff.
Stored in the refrigerator, the glare will last for months. It may discolor and get a little
more yellow or brown. It will also get smelly. So long as the liquid remains clear, it is
fine; the older the better for good consistency. If the liquid gets cloudy or milky, the glare has spoiled and is breaking down chemically—discard and prepare a new batch.

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Aoibeann

Alain,
Here a closeup of the mahogany pores filled with the egg white slurry. In the picture the neck has a thin wash coat of shellac on it.
The neck now has a coat of vinyl seal and 1 of lacquer on it and all the pores appear to be filled.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Long winded! It's not like I asked you to pull my finger...........

OK - for u I try 2 b concise - toot on way - 1st coat curing - agreed - take 2 bare wood........

No prob Filippo - I am long winded...... I took your remarks as having fun with me which is always fine.

Toot on the way but it will take a couple of days for the cure times.

Jim, thank you very much for the picture. That looks very good! It looks very natural, which is what I like.

Lillian, thank for that awesome recipy! I wonder what such an omelette would taste like! lol I will be testing in the next week and I will try your method in obtainin the glare.

Rodney! I will try with medium CA but I'm still very skeptical about sanding back to wood. I did try this before (although with the water-like HotStuff) and as soon as I'd sand back to wood, I'd uncover a new set of pores... I just don't know. I guess you haven't encountered this problem?

I did try a Zpoxy pore fill on some scrap Wenge a while back (when I had just bought the Z and wanted to try it out). I thinned the mix about 50/50 with DA and I must say that just one coat covered the vast majority of the pores. I didn't sand back to the wood, but I was extremelly impressed with the results.

Any reason why I shouldn't go with a 50/50 epoxy/DA coat first, then follow that up with a straight coat, followed by a third thinned out? Will the DA affect how hard the epoxy cures? It seemed fine on my test piece.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

sorry for the delay in response! I fill the sand back to wood. I want the fill only in the wood. Like with any pore fill you have to work it in to the pores a bit. CA like all power systems is in perfect. I don't get splotchy coverage, because I sand back to bare wood I do often have to spot fill some areas when dealing with very open pore woods when sanding back to wood but no more than any other pore system I have ever used To be clear the only thing I like better about CA pore filling over epoxy is the ability to fill and prep in a single day and the near null shrink back.

Jim, did you use plain old egg white, straight out of the shell? Or did you do something like the recipe Sam posted?

Alain, I haven't used CA for pore filling, but Starbond CAs are great, and less expensive than others. The wider selection of viscosities may help you find the one that works best for you if you decide to try again with CA for filling.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, Not being smart enough to know I needed a recipe I just separated the yoke from the whites and went at it.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I think it works fine both ways, Jim. I know Colin, and Joshua just crack the egg and separate the yolk out, the only variant is the container they use for holding the egg white. I remember something about a highball glass.

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Waddy

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