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Greetings, luthiers. Just an amateur musician here, looking for information about elementary guitar technology.

Until recently I always thought X-bracing was for steel strings, and fan-bracing for nylon strings. But then I read that Martin's X-bracing was developed about 1850, and steel strings for guitars didn't come in till the early 20th century. So I assume that for 50 years or so Martin was building X-braced guitars with gut strings. I can't find much information about those guitars, except that they all appear to have had 12 frets to the body, and one comment that when steel strings were introduced Martin just had to make all the braces a little heavier but didn't have to change the basic design. Does anyone know more about that? And what did those X-braced gut-strung Martins sound like? Did they sound similar to Torres-style guitars? Or did they have a different type of sound, more like what a Martin-style steel-string guitar would sound like if you were to put nylon strings on it?

About a year ago I switched from playing steel strings to nylon strings, because I prefer the sound of classical guitars. But I can't get used to the wider neck that classical guitars have. I bought a classical guitar, and I also put nylon strings on my formerly steel-strung dreadnought. I like the feel of the nylon-strung dreadnought much better than the feel of the classical. Contrary to the conventional wisdom, I've had no problem of insufficient space between strings for the plucking hand. But the nylon-strung dreadnought doesn't have the vibrant sound of a classical, so I'm frustrated with both guitars.

I'm not very fussy about sound quality. Both my guitars are inexpensive mass-market models. The dreadnought is a Seagull, and the classical is an old Yamaha. When the Seagull had steel strings on it I thought it sounded as good as any steel-string guitar I'd ever heard. Even the Yamaha, with a laminate soundboard, sounds as good to me as any classical guitar. But I hear a big difference between classical and all other guitars, including the so-called "hybrid" nylon string guitars with narrow necks and 14 frets to the body. To me, those hybrids sound the same as my nylon-strung dreadnought, and not at all like a classical guitar.

I'm thinking about reaching inside the dreadnought and trimming down the braces, in the hope that lighter bracing might give it the sound of a classical. Has anyone ever done that? Or built a classical guitar with X-bracing? Do you think trimming the braces on my nylon-strung dreadnought is likely to make it sound like a classical?

About 30 years ago I built a steel-string guitar with an unconventional shape and construction (a travel guitar, small and light enough to carry on my bicycle, and with a detachable neck for air travel), and I had to make a wild guess about the bracing and the soundboard thickness. After trying out the finished product, I reached inside and trimmed down the braces, and also sanded down the top, till it had a lively sound. I still have the finger chisel that I made for that purpose, and the soundhole of my store-bought dreadnought looks large enough for me to reach inside. So I think I can do the trimming job, and the dreadnought isn't so expensive that ruining it for steel-string use would be a tragedy. But if this is a known dead-end I won't waste my time on it. Any insight you can provide will be much appreciated.

Hi qwrtz just wondering if these are your initials . A christian name would be good. Welcome to the forum.
I am inexperienced in the realms of acoustic guitar building and its history ,but my thoughts on your proposed mods to the Seagull would be to leave it strung with steel strings. Perhaps look at purchasing a flamenco style guitar to satisfy the nylon string feel and sound with a not so wide neck. It would be a shame to silence the Seagull as I understand they are quite good value for money . And that way it will be there waiting for you when the urge for a bluegrass tune sneaks up on you down the track

Regards

Craig.

Hi,
The Martin gut strung X braced guitars were for the most part (but not all) small bodied "parlor" guitars. They sound good with nylon strings, but speaking in generalities, are not as powerful as the modern classical guitar. The necks were usually 1 7/8 inches wide at the nut, a width between that of a typical steel string and a classical guitar. The scale lengths were usually around 25 inches or less.
I wouldn't bother butchering the dreadnaught. Most of the weight is probably in the top so lightening the braces may not gain you much. Find an old parlor guitar and fix it up.

Most "modern" classicals tend to be built with post Segovia influences. He had huge hands, so he favoured wide fingerboards, often 52mm. Most Torres guitars had 49mm nut widths. It really makes a difference. My last build had a 48 mm nut and a radius fingerboard.

Figure out what you want and build it!

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Craig: Thanks for the reply, but flamenco guitars have the same wide neck as classical. They do usually have lower action than a standard classical guitar, but I've already lowered the action on mine to about 3.1 mm clearance at the 12th fret.

Clay: That's what I needed to know. You're saying that what deadens the sound is the weight of the soundboard and braces, not the stiffness of the bracing as I was assuming, right? And to do what I want, if it could work at all, I'd probably have to make the soundboard thinner? I should have thought of that. That's what I had to do with my homemade travel guitar. I must have known more about luthiery back then, and forgotten it because I didn't keep up.

I just measured the thickness at the soundhole, and found the Seagull dreadnought is a lot thicker than the Yamaha classical: 127 vs. 109 mils. But the Yamaha is a laminate soundboard. Are they thinner in general? Because I also have an old Lyle dreadnought, and it has a laminate soundboard that measures 98 mils. Or maybe it's thinner because it's mahogany instead of cedar?

Douglas: A thousand thanks for the information about Segovia's big hands and Torres' 49 mm fingerboards! The entire industry has been trying to make me feel like a freak for not wanting a 52 mm flat fingerboard. They latch onto one idea and reject all others.

And yes, definitely the best thing would be to build a guitar from scratch, if I knew more about luthiery and were more skilled at wood-working. Or hire you to do it, if I were better at making money. I was hoping to avoid all the work of building a whole guitar, especially since the available manufactured products are so close to what I want. 98% of all guitars in existence have either a neck or a soundbox that I'd be perfectly happy with, and it makes me crazy that I can't find one that has both.

One other thing would be that the width also depends on how much space you need to play cleanly, and what is clean enough for you. There is a difference between the needs of a home enthusiast and those of a recording artist.

As a very rough general rule, tops for steelstrings are from 20 to 30% thicker than on a classical, while the braces weight probably a least double and more.

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Build log

The largest guitar Martin designed for gut strings was the 000; an inch or so narrower across the lower bout than a Dread. By the time they made their first Dreads they were pretty well into steel strings. I've made a couple of 12-fret 000 size classical guitars, and they work well. One is the 'Autumn' guitar on my web site, under 'New Work'.

X bracing is stiffer for the weight than the standard fan bracing used in most classicals, and actually works better with a larger box. A normal sized classical with X bracing tends to sound 'tight' and 'small'. Even with a 000 sized box, with a lower bout a full cm larger all around than a standard classical, you have to really lighten up on the bracing.

Interestingly, the recently discontinued Martin 000C16-SGTNE nylon string had a 000 cutaway 12 fret body and was X braced.
Albeit a very light X on a cedar top.
Martin has made many forays into nylon stringed guitars over the years and has used in turn fan, lattice and now (as in the 19th century) the X brace all with varying degrees of success.
The 000016C-SGTNE is actually a very serviceable guitar with good electronics a 26 1/8" scale and a 1 7/8" nut width.

www.guitarsbydavidlaplante.com

Alan answered your question .
the Xis stiffer !
Nylon strings do not have the pulling strenght of steels!
With a small (parlor) guitar a X may work well with nylon strings if built tothe needs of the string pull !(very light )
Nylon high tension is 90 lbs.
Steel light ga. is 160 lbs .

These are important factors to know when making guitars !

Mike

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Mike Collins

Does the position of the bridge makes much of a difference in tone? I ask because I've noticed that all the guitars I've seen so far that had the characteristic sound of a classical also had 12 frets to the body, whereas any nylon string guitars I've seen with 14 frets to the body didn't have that sound. Joining the neck at the 14th fret moves the bridge much closer to the neck joint, and I wondered if there might be some connection between that and the type of tone. I.e., would the manufacturers of hybrid guitars have to switch to a 12th fret neck joint if they wanted to get a classical sound?

It too can be accomplished with a 14 fret neck join but all other parts of the guitar need to be adjusted for the change.
Here's one of my 14 fret nylon strings you can listen to on the cut "Facets".

http://cdbaby.com/cd/npstookey9?q=ccd+b ... lz=1I7DKUS


www.guitarsbydavidlaplante.com

To go along woth what Mike said the top on a steel string will be between.094 and .12" thich this is a very stiff diaphram for just 90lbs of string tension. the typical classical top will have a graduated thickness form .075-.095 max. This in conjunction with the shaving tha will need to be done makes taking a steel string and converting it into a well responding classical a difficult task at best.

The early gut string Martin folk guitars you spoke of were built much lighter than todays steel string guitars. Bracing and thicknesses were completely different.

It's not just the difference in tension, although that's part of it. If you build a nylon string guitar of the usual size, with a 14" wide lower bout, and X bracing, the timbre will usually not be what people want, even if the top is thin and the bracing light. This is because the distribution of stiffness within the top is different, and the resulting vibration of the assembled top is not what's expected. This gets pretty complicated, but it's not an accident that X bracing is much more successful on steel string guitars than nylon, while the opposite is true for fan bracing. Either can be made to work in either case, but it's tricky. The upshot is that, IMO, if you want to get a useful 'classical' sound from an X-braced top, you should make it wider than the usual classical guitar, as Martin did with the 12-fret 000. You might find, though, that if you do you'll end up with something that's not as powerful as a good 'standard' classical. As I say, it's complicated.....

Thanks very much, everyone, for all the information about bracing and nylon strings, which will be very helpful if I end up trying to build a classical guitar with the narrow neck I'm looking for. Based on the information you all provided, I've given up hope of trying to get a classical tone out of my dreadnought. If I build a guitar, I'll definitely use a standard Torres type design for the box.

I'm turning now to Plan B (building a guitar from scratch is Plan C or D), which is to trim down the neck of my classical guitar. I've already made a 46 mm nut for it, and I like playing it much better that way. I'm sure I would like it even more if the neck itself were narrower there, so I'm going to trim both edges till they fit the 46 mm nut, and taper them to align with the same points on the saddle that they currently align with. I'm not going to alter the bridge. I'm finding that wide string spacing and a fat neck in the heel end doesn't bother me as long as the nut end is narrow.