Official Luthiers Forum!

I think you could save quite a bit by buying everything for you build at once from LMI (or other supplier). You can get "kits" with little or no work done to them save packing everything together and they give you a good discount over buying the pieces individually. also saves on shipping.

If folks are paying $400 a pop for a good finish, maybe I need to focus my skillset! <smile>

_________________
Formerly known as Adaboy.......

For 400 pops for a finish I could buy the equipments needed to do them and do it myself. Acoustic guitar isn't that hard to finish... just fill/seal then clear. Electrics are harder because I'd have to do sunbursts and metallics and they require a bit of a learning curve. Finishing materials are not really that expensive either. I spend like less than $10 in materials for a finish (most of them goes into thinners and sandpapers)

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai Fu, you have to remember that the majority of the talk on prices here is US$ in the USA. Most of that $400 is in the labor to produce the best finishes on instruments with only a small number which can compare, honestly.

I also doubt very much that finishing an electric is harder than an acoustic. There are many acoustic's which get bursts so that's just a wash between them. The other thing with acoustics that you don't need to worry much about with electrics is the finial thickness of the finish on the instrument. The finish on an acoustic needs to be from 3-6 mills (0.003-0.006") in order to protect it enough yet not to dampen the vibration of the top. Any thinner and you'll most likely have sand through in spots and the finish won't be thick enough to protect the wood. Any thicker and the remaining solids of the finish start to dampen the vibration of the top and then you can kiss all that hard work voicing the top goodbye.

It's not that easy, if it were, there certainly wouldn't be 3 guys in the USA alone(that I know of, probably many more) who only spray guitars, full time, every day, all day long. They'd certainly be out of work.

And $400 will not set one up to spray a good lacquer finish safely. If you don't care about your neighbors, pets, or the environment much or your safety, than it can be as inexpensive as getting a good size compressor (at least $250 right there but more like $500) and a decent spray gun (as cheap as $30 but that wouldn't last long in a full blow production spray shop, more like $150 and up to $600) So right there you're up to $280 plus tax before you buy a hose (another $10 min), a water trap (good ones cost $50 or more), regulator to adjust air flow (again $50) then there's the can of lacquer (costs $45 for a gal which will spray 3 guitars if you're good, so $15) then there's the sandpaper, buffer and don't forget a fan of some sort to suck all those chemicals away from you (and filtered too). If you don't care about your safety, any old fan will do which can be as inexpensive as $50 off ebay, but an explosion proof fan (which is where the safety starts to come in) can run your from $300-$1000 or more depending on your booth size. Oh, then there's a respirator min $45 but better to get a full face unit $125 and better yet is a forced air unit to keep you breathing safe filtered air $500+.

Setting up to spray guitars properly can cost much more than the materials alone and really 3-4 times what the materials can cost, if you intend to do it right that is.

You don't have to spray guitars for the finish to be acceptable though, there are many other acceptable methods and finishes to choose, but the best sure seems to be lacquer with the new polyester finishes closing the gap rather quickly.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Just to add to what Rod wrote, Joe White is spraying catalyzed polyester finish. Everyone who has done that has agreed that there's a steep learning curve and a lot of safety equipment involved. We ain't talking your run of the mill lacquer here. $400 will buy you the spray gun Joe is using.

_________________
http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

For the qualiy of finish that the "pros" are putting on, $400 bucks for a poly finish is a steal.

I'll jump in here.
Steve, the other candy store would be A & M in Cambridge. Top notch!

_________________
Dave
Milton, ON

If you are in production mode and your guitars are selling, farming out your finish at $350-$400 a pop can actually be cost effective as you can start more instruments while some are in finish. When I am finishing instruments in my shop everything else shuts down.
Terry

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Theoretically you could just go out, pay $5 for a can of lacquer and spray with that, but once you start talking about having a proper and SAFE setup, then the price goes up exponentially. Sure, you may be able to go out and spray in the hallway of your apartment building, but in the buildings I've lived in, that would probably get you evicted before your finish dried. Also, you may be wearing a respirator, but unless all of your neighbors, their children, and their pets are wearing one too, it's just not nice to spray toxic chemicals into the atmosphere in a common living space regardless of how well ventilated it may be.

Also plenty of acoustics are finished with bursts which are just as difficult so i don't think you could say that electrics are any more or less difficult to finish than acoustics. $400 is really not a lot if you consider the investment in space, equipment, time, and labor that you'd have to make if you finished your own guitars in a reasonably safe manner. Of course if you care nothing about safety or environmental or social responsibility, then you could probably as you said, go out and buy everything for $400 or less. And yes, there are people that live in more remote places and can spray outdoors liberally without bothering another soul, but for someone like me living in the city, I just don't have that luxury (which is why I've looked into finishes that don't need spray equipment).

That said, I personally think the OP could cut a lot of the costs just by doing things himself. The more work you let others do for you, the more you end up paying for that work anyway. The neck is one of the most important parts of the guitar and I don't think it'd be a bad idea to start learning how to shape one from beginning (it's really not that hard). The same goes for cutting fretboard slots. If you just invest in the equipment now (you can get a little jig with a handsaw and a template or something), it pays for itself pretty quickly over the course of the first few builds.

Thanks to everyone for their comments. It appears the majority think that I could realize some of the biggest savings by making my own necks. Sounds like a good idea and I will venture into this soon.

I'm hoping to build a small travel guitar for myself soon and will most likely let it be the guitar where I do lots of experimenting.

Keep the comments coming - this is being a great learning process for me.

_________________
P A U L B U R N E R
Burner Guitars

Interesting topic but I'd like to nuance it a bit (i.e. slight hi-jack). I take some pleasure and pride in the fact that I make my own necks, but, honestly, I don't know how anybody can make any money making these things themselves. I just can't compete with a machine. I've seen claims that some guys can carve a neck in half an hour using their grandfathers pocket knife, but it takes me several hours over the course of a couple of days (allowing for glue to dry). This is to save about $70. over the cost of just buying one pre-carved. So getting the cost down is one thing, getting down in a way that makes economic sense is another and I might be swallowing some pride and buying my necks soon.

Pat

_________________
There are three kinds of people:

Those that make things happen,
those that watch things happen,
and those that wondered what happened.

I think if you're mass producing it makes better sense to use CNC but for hobbyist it makes more financial sense to make your own neck...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

My friend who just got into this told me he spent around 4.5k for everything. That includes Euro woods, top notch tools and a bunch of the boring never ending necessities, i.e. CLAMPS! It all depends, but trying to build is certainly not cheap! I'm also one of those guys that believes in working with good materials/tools from the start. Reason being... It can be very easy to get discouraged by the whole thing all because of garbage tools and/or wood, etc... It's like learning to play... Imagine if your teacher handed you a poorly set-up acoustic with rusty strings and impossibly high action the first time you're up at bat? I'd probably choose another instrument if that happened to me. What I did was "spread it out". I couldn't start building right away, so I would get dribs and drabs here and there. Buy a few tools. Then bought some wood when I could. It's easier than just dropping a few 'k' in one shot. YMMV.
-John