Official Luthiers Forum!

First, I note that Josh is posting on a luthier's forum. Every single luthier here started with the concept, the notion, the idea of building an instrument. Not everyone who thinks about building an instrument ever does, but every one who does eventually build an instrument started somewhere in the vicinity of where Josh is right now. I sure wish I would have built a guitar when I was 16, rather than waiting until I was 50!

Josh, if you can limp along with the guitar that you have for one year, then you can get started on building your first guitar. Put a new bone nut and saddle on that old one, get the action set correctly - that will help you both by giving you a bit of experience on those critical tasks, and will also make it more bearable to live with that clunker for the next year.

I am another beginning luthier that can say that my first guitar plays very well and sounds better than most any guitar hanging in the music stores. It can be done. There are more resources available to you now than any luthier had even 10 years ago. Books, DVDs, online videos, numerous websites of individual luthiers that document step-by-step many/most of the processes, and several forums full of luthiers willing and able to help you.

Unless you are already very good with your hands, in arts and crafts projects, then I'd say it is likely that a couple years down the road you'll look back at your first guitar and you may be unhappy with it aesthetically. There's a lot of artistry that separates homely looking guitars from pretty nice looking guitars from very nice looking guitars from awesome looking guitars. That is, however, a completely different thing from a very good sounding guitar. The guitar could be kinda homely, and could still sound better than most guitars hanging at the local music store. Don't get intimidated by the guitars you see displayed here and on other luthier forums - some of what you are seeing is literally the cream of the crop of the best and most experienced luthiers in the world.

If you start with good materials (a kit would be ideal), without much regard for the "bling" but asking specifically for a high quality soundboard, follow Natelson and that other guy's Tradition and Technology book, and make the soundboard and all of the soundboard braces about 10% thinner than the book states, you can make a very responsive guitar on your first try. (Ask experienced luthiers why their first guitar sound bad, and most will tell you that the primary mistake was over-bracing the top.) I'm sure I'll get some experienced luthiers to disagree with simply going 10% thinner than that book states. I'm a complete beginner and I really have no business offering tips like that, but if you ask 100 experienced luthiers if that is good advice, well, after the dust settles and the feathers are all cleaned up, I'll bet you'd see that most would agree. The vast majority of factory guitars hanging at the music stores are slightly overbraced, on purpose, to make sure they don't have to do warranty work. Luthiers building the highest quality hand built guitars all arrive at different ways to figure out more precisely (by "feel" or "tapping" or deflection measurement) just how thick each different soundboard should be, and just how wide and tall each brace should be, depending on that one soundboard and even specifically what style of guitar is going to be played. You won't have that experience on your first instrument, so I'm suggesting you go with the simple formula of following Natelson's book but go just a little bit thinner than those given "safe" dimensions for the soundboard and braces.

As several people mentioned, check around and see if there is a friendly luthier in your area. Don't expect anyone to take you under their wing for free or spend vast amounts of time with you, but many luthiers will be happy to help a little bit. After I braced my soundboard, I asked Ed Schaefer, who was local to me at the time, whether he thought it was OK or overbraced. Those few minutes of Ed handling and tapping on my soundboard, with the experience he had gained from many year and many guitars, were priceless.

Well, I've probably already said too much, overstepped my boundaries as a beginning luthier myself, but Josh I encourage you to go for it!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I have seen kits out there where the back and side is already attached and stuff like that. They would be much easier if you are a beginner. For those who wants to learn some stuff the Stewmac kit has pretty much everything done except for gluing the parts together, so no radius dish or anything expensive is needed. As far as reamer goes you could probably buy a reamer from industrial tool suppliers like Enco or MSC (make sure it has the right taper and all) for around $10 at the most. As for tuner reamer if you're using gotoh/schaller style tuner that requires a 10mm hole, it doesn't need to be that precise, the reamer is only needed for instruments like violin or other instruments that uses a tapered wooden stick as tuner. I would highly recommend getting a drill press though if you have the space, then you can get all sorts of attachment that allows you to sand and thickness wood plates.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Dennis,
Thank you! You beat me to it! And I wasn't going to be so nice.

Josh,

I don't know what your budget is, but Dennis's suggestion of setting up your own guitar will teach you some skills you will need to complete your build when you get to that point. Go to Stew-Mac and look at their Essential Nut Making Kit and their Essential Fretting Kit. I think that sets you back only $200. Make a new nut and saddle out of bone for that existing guitar and work the frets over.
Got more money? A kit costs $350 to ???, depends on what you want. Mine was $560.
Got less money? CNC Guitar parts, LMI, Stew-Mac and others sell instructional DVD's.

I built my first from a kit in 3 months. I'm a carpenter and cabinet maker with 20 years experience. Since I purchased an LMI kit that was fully serviced, it didn't require a lot of specialty tools.

Steve

Hesh, I think I should test out one of your Drednoughts for you...PM me and Ill give you my addi to send it, Ill tell you if its any good....

Josh, here you go:

You can retop a guitar for $250.00 or so if your careful, and you wont have to mess with the building part, only the top, and the neck.

Get a decent beater guitar or 2, and some student grade top woods, and top quality brace woods. Practice on these with John Mayes #2 Tap Tuning video, and Robbi's top tunning video.

There is a great site on retoping a guitar, but I can't find it in my links, maybe someone can post it.

Retopping is the cheapest way to get into this craft.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

Sorry Lars, I think I didn't word what I was trying to say quite right. I meant that the guitar I have right now, does not sound that good, I would like a better guitar to play, but do not have to know how at the time to build one myself. But regardless of whether I build one now, or buy one, I do indeed want to become a luthier. I want to make a career out of it, so I want to build many, for a lifetime, not just one so I can have a good guitar for cheaper.



Well Rod, I really wish that was possible. But I go to a pretty small Christian school, and while most of the time I like it more than I think I would a public school, that's the one thing I really wish we had, but unfortunately my school does not have a woodworking shop. And I am not really experienced with woodworking.

My dad and brothers are both into tool work, but their joy is cars. So they're usually pretty good at working with their hands, so that might help, and with all the tools they have accumulated, theres bound to be at least a few that I could use in parts of building a guitar as well.

I am very grateful for the large number of responses, and the quality of every one of them. All of them seem to be great advice so thanks to everyone here. And Dennis, you did not say too much! I like the sound of your ideas very much, you were extremely helpful.

I do not know of any luthiers that are close to where I live, so if there are any luthiers in the NW IL area, or any where in the states actually (because I will be heading off to college in 2 years), who would be willing to take an apprentice, or help for awhile I would greatly appreciate the information. I have thrown around the thought of emailing a few of the bigger independent luthiers, but I thought that I should at least make a few attempts of my own to build before hunting for a huge apprenticeship.

Once again, thanks to everyone who responded,

Josh

If I had to guess, a good numbers of builders got started because they wanted a guitar the could not afford or justify spending money on. Me? Dyer Model 6 Harp Guitar. Of course, they don't make those anymore unless you consider Lark In The Morning (sorry, my momma told me if you don't have anything positive to say, keep it to yourself, and I will). And to have one built for you? Min $7500. I am creative enough and figured I would rather have the tools and the experience to go along with my hand made harp guitar. And I am now quickly closing in on that goal. I wish I had good advice here. When I was 16, I was lucky to have a car that ran. If you lived near a small guitar company or Luthier, I would suggest going to them and asking to apprentice for a year. I know if some young person came to me and was serious, I would help them.

Mike

This can be a bit of a minefield for us 'new builders' - If we suggest what worked for us and its against the grain of what the experienced builders would argue, it is a bit intimidating to say it - because without doubt te eperience, artistry and sheer craftsmanship displayed by those posting on here is outstanding - scarily so in fact when you see th beauty of these instruments.

But I also think, perhaps controvercially, that there are times when maybe some will advise doing it one way - because thats the way they did it and the way they learned - and as they now produce outstanding instruments, the logic dictates thats what they recommend?

You mention you want to be a luthier? I say go for it, I wish I had done so at your age, but was encouraged at school to be far more academic and do the university science thing -Done OK career wise, but at 40 would love to have followed a different path.. so follow your dreams. If serious about it, do what you think works best for you.. be it a kit or from scratch, the materials will be about the same - you just have to do more work which does require more tools, and more skills, but you willhave to learn them at some point and as I say what worked for me was the idea to build the whole thing - I thought at the time it might be the only one I ever get to build so I wanted to do it all - so it took 18 months, but tonally its a great instrument - sure cosmetically, there are plenty of places where my wookworking skills have let me down - they will improve - but the pride and satisfaction is second to none.

I can only offer the advice based on what I would do, this is not based on any experience or evidence, but a gut feeling based on your dreams - use whatever money you get and start to slowly accumulate some quality hand tools - you simply dont need powertools - they simply speed up processes that can be done by hand - and you do learn a hell of a lot about buiding by doing these things by hand first time round - when you get better and have saved a bit more cash -sure start to invest some more, but the key really is to LEARN how to do something - If you have a crappy guitar you are not happy with, try and discover what it is about it that is not right, the top? bracing? etc.. and the advice of creating a new top is pretty good, because you learn the skill, and will improve your existing guitar without a doubt.

Ithink what I am saying is that there are 3000+ members on this site, and I guess about 3000+ ideas on what you should do - all of it will be good because most is based on experience, but i do think the things like building guitars is all about discovery and bringing your own ideals to it - follow your instincts set your self up and build - have patience as well because it does take time to do things well - maybe its a good exercis to use your cash on tools and materials even though it means holding on to the crappy guitar - a test of patience if you like, but only you will know if thats right for you. Go for it and enjoy it - as they say, you often learn more from your mistakes than your success and as frustrataing as it sometimes feels, your learn swiftly to 'enjoy' the learning process.

Todd is right. THere is no question that you can purchase a "highly serviced" kit from LMI (see their guitar wizard). You should need only a few hand tools. Heck, you can finish it with spray can laquer (good thing about that is you can take the finish off and redo later).

Check out LNI's guitar wizard and buy a serviced kit.

Mike

Hi Josh,
I would suggest that there is a middle way...
As has been mentioned, learning to set up the guitar you have, to be the best it can be is the first step to understanding guitar making. You don't need a lot of expensive tools to do this. Your father and brothers will probably have the tools (feeler guages, triangular and needle files) and abilities to help you with this.
The next step might be to find a better quality guitar in need of repair. Stay away from "vintage" or "collectable" guitars. Look for a good quality modern instrument in a "scratch and dent" sale. You can learn much from doing minor crack and finish repairs and if you don't mind a few cosmetic flaws have an instrument for half the cost of it's unblemished cousin.
I think Rod True has given you some good advice and would suggest you start assembling a collection of common hand tools, first from what is probably laying about the house, (hammer, screw drivers, razor knife, 1/2 inch chisel, clothes pins, pocket knife, paper clamps, etc) and then scouring the flea markets for planes, chisels and other woodworking tools. Study the Stew Mac catalogue. You might find the 25 cent pair of end nippers from the flea market looks remarkably like the rather expensive fret nippers SM offers.
As your collection of tools grows you will find other project guitars that you can repair and resell. Eventually you will have the desire and "chops" to build a complete guitar- a good understanding of what makes a guitar work and the experience using hand tools.
This was how I did it. My first "scratch build" was a dulcimer, not a guitar, but it showed me I could build a nice sounding and very playable musical instrument without a factory full of equipment. Thirty plus years later I still get a sense of joy and accomplishment when first hearing the voice of an instrument I have made.
Whatever path you follow, good luck with your lutherie endeavors!

Like the others have said, Go for it, Just one thing, its a must to have patience in this, I have come to see haha, when I was 16 I did not have it, I remember how my girlfriend at that time told me to stop playing the guitar and spend more time with her, so I got mad and said OK so this is how you want it huh, and put the guitar on the floor and stomped on it 10 times until in lookt like a pile of firewood hmm bought it 3 days before from money I had saved for like a year hahaha. well My patience is better now, but woman still makes me want to jump on guitars hahaha. So ! get yourself a nice kit from John Hall at bluescreekguitars, heás more than friendly and will probably help you along the way if you ask him, he also has a "how to build your first guitar" topic on his site. but hey, stay away from woman as long as you can !!!

Lars.

Hey Josh:
I live in a college town. with a music shop at one end that sells a lot of used guitars. I bet if you had something like that in your area you could make some ready cash if you could learn how to set up guitars. It's almost impossable to get an electric guitar from a used shop to stay in tune if the new player doesn't know how to string it properly or how to set up the bridge. I see used acoustics in there with strings 1/2 inch high. How about a service setting up a guitar then simply tuneing it.check and level frets. Have some electronic tuners in stock to sell . A youngster gets his folks to buy them a $300.00 guitar should have no problem getting his folks to pay you another $50.00 for setting it up.
Bill

FWIW my first build has cost less than £300 so far, but I used my Dad's/Grandad's chisels, clamps, planes, money ...

I started in the summer and I am just prepping the gutiar for FP now, alas its too cold to stand in the garage for very long, and I have exams comming up in the new year so progress is at a stand still for the past month or so. if I organised my time better im pretty sure it would be sinifhes by now.

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"Anything that happens, happens. Anything that in happening causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Anything that in happening happens again, happens again. Though not necessarily in that order." Douglas Adams

I may have missed it but I did not read where this question was address.

Simply put any load bearing assembly's components transmits all or a portion of it's load force into either connective components or along the length, width or depth of its self. All sharp abrupt edges and or connections joints create focal points in this transition along a component or in to a connective component. These focal points create areas where the load forces are higher or terminal creating higher load stress in the component or joint of components.

Smooth and radial transitions reduce these focal points thereby reducing or eliminating the focal points or stress risers.

Some Stress risers can be mediated by changing the profile of the component. An example of this is braces with rounded over cross-sectional profiles and smooth longitudinal profiles.