Official Luthiers Forum!

Interesting point, Andy. Thanks. Hopefully Al will chime in with any further enlightenment he has to offer on this as well.

Dave, I just listened to your clip. Sounded great! Thanks for posting the link to that. I'm going for a brighter tone...
BTW, my customer tunes his zouks like the top four strings of a guitar: DGBE (he actually tunes them CFAD and capoes at the 2nd). The instrument I'm designing for him will have 5 courses, ADGBE. I have suggested to him that we make the A and D courses octave pairs, to give more cut to the lower notes, while making the other 3 unisons. Does my ear tell me correctly that your zouk in the clip is tuned in all unisons?

Arnt, I watched your video, too. Cool! Beautiful sound, and nice playing. My customer specifically does not want a bassy sound, but, rather, lots of power in the mids and highs. So, I'll be aiming in a different direction than you did with this zouk. The more zouks I hear, though, the more it helps me focus my concept for this one, so thanks!

Several persuasive votes here for Honduran rosewood... I don't have any in stock... maybe I'll buy a set or two and check them out. I've been leaning toward maple, partly because of my experience with the sound of maple instruments, and partly because of the tap tones I'm getting from a particular set of big leaf I have on my shelf.

Thanks again to everyone for all the helpful input... and keep it coming!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd,

So your client is getting close to being the Keith Richard (squared ) of Irish music - just tune it GDGBD. As Keith supposedly said "Five strings, three chords, one a***hole". Could be that the Marshall stack I suggested may fit in quite well.

Yes they are unisons. Personally I dont like the sound of octaves (I have a Fylde octave bouzouki) plus they are a swine to intonate properly - lots of saddle carving.

Why doesn't your customer just get a short scale cittern? Certainly can be loud and bright and he won't need to use the capo.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave, I assume you meant your comments in jest, but I will say that I think there is a world of difference between open G tuning and standard guitar tuning, with or without the 6th string. My own opinion is that standard guitar tuning is a brilliant tuning; if some other tuning had happened to evolve as the "standard" and EADGBE were an "alternate" tuning, I think everybody would be all over it as the coolest alternate tuning in the world. I guess that's why it's standard, because it's so great. In any case, my customer is a very good player who demonstrates that DGBE works beautifully for traditional Irish tunes, in the same way standard guitar tuning does for virtually every other style of music. I also think that tuning by 4ths (mostly) makes a whole lot of sense for instruments any bigger than a mandola. But that, again, is my opinion; the bottom line here is that ADGBE is what he wants, and that's what he shall have.

He won't, of course, have to use a capo on the guit-zouk I make for him. It will be designed to be tuned ADGBE, and it will have a relatively long scale - most likely 650mm/25.6", though I may go as long as 25.7". The long scale, along with relatively heavy strings, is part of how I intend to get him the power and brilliant tone he wants.

He and I are still in discussion about the octave pairs for the low A and D strings. I do believe it would help the lower notes to cut through. I'm not recommending an octave pair for the G string, as that entails a very skinny string for the octave, and I think that gets too twangy/jangly.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Slabmaster, it's interesting you should mention ash. The instrument of mine that my customer played, which led to this commission, was my alto guitar prototype, which is built with white ash (Fraxinus americana) back and sides. He LOVED the tone of this instrument. The alto guitar is a much smaller and higher pitched instrument than what I'm now designing for him, but, in many ways, my concept for his guit-zouk is a larger version of that instrument. Hard to say for sure whether the tonal contribution of the ash would translate to the larger, lower pitched instrument in a way that would work as well for the sound he's after, but it's certainly a possibility I'm considering. I happen to have some gorgeous curly ash on my shelf waiting to be resawn.

At this point, I'd say that the leading possibilities are maple, ash, and Honduran rosewood. I also plan to further investigate wenge and Mediterranean cypress.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

BTW, Al Carruth has posted over on Hesh's loud guitar thread. Check it out.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Kent, thanks for your suggestion. I've been meaning to get back to you on this. Wenge... extremely low damping, very loud... this is sounding good. As for your description of "lots of sparkle in the mids and highs," we're getting into the perennial challenge of using words to describe sound, so I don't know, but the word "sparkle" doesn't suggest to me the sound I'm after with this instrument. I'd be more inclined to say, "lots of muscle in the mids and highs". Not that sparkle would be a bad thing, but when I say "bright" tone, I don't mean sparkly so much as brassy, ringing, cutting... really strong and loud in the mids and highs. I think of rosewoods and other dense, low-damping woods as generally contributing to a sparkly sound, as well as a strong bass, and good overall power, but not so much in the mids, and not as much in the highs as in the lows.

Speaking of rosewoods, though, another wood I want to look into more is palo escrito. It's a Dalbergia, and it's got the loud, glassy, ringing tap tones of other rosewoods, but it's amazingly light. I've only played one guitar made with it, so I don't have the experience to draw any conclusions about what it tends to do for the sound, but the light weight combined with the (apparently) low damping and ringing tap tones suggests to me that it might make a brighter sounding guitar than other rosewoods, while also contributing to high volume.

It's interesting to me that no one except Ken has suggested maple. It still seems like a good candidate to me, based on the bright, cutting tone it tends to contribute... but I keep thinking that a very low damping wood (which maple is not, unless I'm mistaken), incorporated into a design that optimizes projection, might be even better for maximizing the potential of this guit-zouk to be heard alongside the loud instruments in this player's band.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I would think that a maple neck might give you some of what you are looking for. You had mentioned a set of big leaf that you had but I would probably go more for a super hard eastern maple based on what I have of both. I have never used Western maple for a guitar though so I can't speak much to it.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I also think that the article that Ricardo refers to in the latest Taylor Guitar Magazine will answer a lot of your questions. It provides a good description of the tonal qualities of different woods, and what tops work best with some of them. It also has high quality photographs of each wood featured. I just received my copy today. The descriptions are concise, but very informative. It'll make a good reference guide.

Call Taylor, they may send you a copy for free.

Regards,
Ron M.

Sheesh, as I have suspected on this forum for months now, I am invisible....

I know you said in your first post that although your customer wanted projection and loudness, he didn't want the "bark" of an archtop with a floating bridge. Well, traditional archtops are known for projection, for cutting power etc. Have you considered a round (oval) hole arch top, or a perhaps a hybrid type instrument like Tom Ribbecke's "halfling", for "the best best from both worlds" as they say...?

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Sorry, Sam! What had stuck in my mind from your post was your comments on the sycamore and walnut instruments, and I had forgotten your mention of maple. I do, indeed, appreciate your input! You are far from invisible as far as I'm concerned, though, truth be told, I can't see you...

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks, Ron. I've downloaded and read Taylor's article, and it was, indeed, helpful. Too bad they didn't discuss ash, Honduran rosewood, wenge, Mediterranean cypress, and palo escrito!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks for your suggestion, Arnt. I suggested to my customer that he consider an archtop instrument, and we've discussed that option. Taking everything that he wants into consideration, though, I think he's on the right track with choosing a flattop with a fixed bridge. He and I both feel very confident that we have a good mutual understanding of the sound he's looking for, and I think a flattop optimized for projection will do it. The overall design I'm planning will push the flattop instrument toward the archtop sound realm, while keeping more of the harmonic richness and sustain. I wouldn't exactly call it a hybrid instrument, but it's kind of thinking in that direction.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks, Todd.

You will keep up updated with this project, won't you? It will be interesting to know what you have discovered in creating the desired tone.

Hi Todd,
I think they only featured wood that they actually use. Glad you found it helpful.

Ron M.

i have no experience with palo escrito, but i found your comment interesting. i dont believe i have heard anyone tout that rosewood quite the way you did. im not discounting psychoacoustics and/or marketing schemes here, but i was reading the tonewood profile for palo escrito in the LMI catalog and they say it is a "natural for flamenco guitars." i thought that was totally relevant to the guit-zouk you have in mind. they also echo what you said about its light weight. just two cents.

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sweat the small stuff.

I just bought a set of palo escrito from Indian River Tonewoods (haven't received it yet). When I get my hands on it, I'll tap it, scratch it, caress it, sleep with it under my pillow ... and try to intuit whether it might be the best back and side set for this guit-zouk. This wood's properties, inasmuch as I've ascertained so far, seem to suggest it as a good possibility, but without having played a lot of instruments made from it, it would be something of an intuition-informed guess.

Another thought I have is that it might be an excellent choice for the bridge (if I can find a piece I could make a bridge out of), due to the light weight. For that matter, I might even see if I can find a piece to make the neck out of.

Or, maybe I'll go the safer route of maple back and sides with a maple neck... or ash back and sides with a koa neck... or maybe Honduran rosewood, wenge, or cypress...

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hey Todd, let me know your experience with Palo Escrito. I got a couple sets a few yrs back and it seemed to bother my upper respiratory tract, just from handling. Haven't worked it yet.

I made a classical guitar with Black Locust B&S for Montreal. The wood has lower damping the IRW, but a little higher than most BRW, and it's also less dense than IRW. The sound is between a Flamenco and a Classical, and it's plenty loud.

Al, where does your information on the damping of various woods come from? Tapping and listening? Some other kind of testing you do? Some other source of this info?

Thanks!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I've been measuring the properties of the wood I get in for several years now. There are various ways of doing this: I do a vibration test using my signal generator. Given the size and mass of the piece, the peak resonant frequency of the lowest bending modes along and across the grain, and the band widths of those modes, it's possible to calculate the Young's modulus in the two directions, and related damping factors. There are lots of things that introduce errors, of course, but you can get usefully close to the 'real' values without the need for outrageously expensive equipment.

You can also make judgements about these things by 'feel' and by listening to the tap tones. The problem is that there are a lot of things that can mess up your judgement, and some tests I've heard of suggest that, while some folks are pretty good at it, most are not as good as they think they are.

The first time I tapped a piece of persimmon wood, I thought it had pretty low losses, like a rosewood. It turns out that it actually has losses closer to maple. I think it was so dense that I was just knocking it really hard to get it going, and then, of course, it would ring on for a while.

Generally speaking, Englemann spruce has low density and a low Young's modulus along the grain. A year or so ago I ordered some from one of the suppliers, and asked them to send me the least dense stuff they had. I guess there was a mixup: what they sent me was the densest Engelmann i've ever seen. A lot of it was right up at the top of the chart with Red spruce. If I'd thicknessed that stuff like 'normal' englemann it would have been 'way too heavy and stiff. MAYBE I'd have caught it by 'feel', but this way I KNOW I did.

As Feynman said: "The easiest person for you to fool is yourself". It's hard to avoid unless you take the time to do some objective measurements. Even if they aren't 'lab grade' you'll avoid some problems.

Perhaps Pau Rosa or Honduran RW B&S coupled to an Adi top. Leave the top around .080" - .090", use very thin but TALL [non scalloped] braces. Tall thin lower tonebars AND tall side finger braces. Use the same B&S woods for the bridge plate. Increasing the tops raidus will raise the overall pitch but can make neck to body fitting difficult.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

(Back from several days away from the computer...)

Thank you, Al. Now, if I can beg your attention one more time before I let this thread die, there were a couple of questions I posted on Hesh's loud guitar thread, referring to one of your posts, that slipped through the cracks. I'll copy them here:

"Perhaps the ideal back would be light and stiff, and have low damping? If it were both light and stiff, though, it might be tricky to get it's pitch down to a semitone or so above the top's.

Thinking of a light and stiff back with low damping, a wood like palo escrito comes to mind. My only first hand experience with that wood was at the GAL convention. LMI had sets there, and I was struck by how light it was, while having the very lively, glassy ring of other, far denser rosewoods. I don't recall exactly how stiff it seemed, actually; I just remember that in my hands it felt like a rosewood, only without the weight, and it sure had the ring. Do you have first hand experience with palo escrito, Al?"

Tim, thanks for your input as well. All of your thoughts are much appreciated. Another vote for Honduran rosewood and Adirondack spruce...

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I had a student who started a palo escrito guitar, but never finished it. I'd love to hear the thing, darn it.

I think you're on the right track, though: low density and low damping. As I say, the Balck Locust gutiar I made last summer has that 'Flamenco' sort of sound, even though I was going for 'Classical'. If I'd pushed it more toward the bright and loud end of things it would have been a killer. Ah well.

BTW, on mistake i made on that one was leaving the back a bit thick, trying to make it heavier. As a result the 'main back' mode was a bit higher pitched than I wanted. I suppose I could scrape the whole thing down, but I can't face re-doing the French polish on that open pored wood.

Thanks, Al. Your input is greatly appreciated.

Terry, thanks for the warning. I'll let you know how it goes for me working with palo escrito.

Thanks again to everyone else who contributed thoughts and suggestions as well. This thread seems to have run its course...

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/